The Tudors 1485-1603 Henry VII -Elizabeth I

Started by cinrit, November 17, 2011, 12:38:27 PM

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HereditaryPrincess

QuoteI have just learnt of a most surprising event in our island story. Queen Elizabeth I's privy council ordered bonfires to be lit and prayers to be said in church to give thanks for the defeat of the Ottoman fleet at Lepanto in 1571.
As a Christian queen, Elizabeth had no love of "the Turke". During the Ottoman campaign to invade Hungary in 1566, long prayers were ordered to muster "spirituall ayde", lest "the Infidels, who have already a great part of that most goodly and strong kyngdome in theyr possession, shoulde prevayle wholly agaynst the same (whiche God forbyd), and all the rest of Christendom should lye as it were naked and open to the incursions and invasions of the sayde savage and most cruell enemyes the Turkes".
The notion of Christendom in peril remained, but the remarkable thing in 1571 was that Elizabeth was allying the prayers of Protestant England with the Holy League put together by Pope Pius V. The fleet sent into battle by Spain, Venice, Genoa, Savoy, the Papal States and the Knights Hospitaller from Malta was commanded by Don John of Austria, natural son of the Emperor Charles V and half-brother of Philip II of Spain.

Pope Pius and the Virgin Queen - Telegraph

cinrit

No, I haven't heard of it, Amabel.  It may have been mentioned in the workshop I participated in, but I don't remember.  I checked it out on amazon.com, and it looks interesting.  I may have to order it.  I haven't read a good Anne Boleyn book in a long time.   Thanks for mentioning it!

Cindy
Always be yourself.  Unless you can be a unicorn.  Then always be a unicorn.

amabel

Cindy I'd get it from the library if I were you!!! She has written more serious books but this is a weird piece of work, that seems to have sprung from some kind of FB page or blog or something about Anne Bol and AB fans! She puts in a Lot of stuff about her own personal life, and it doesn't IMO seem very scholarly.

cinrit

Thanks for the tip, Amabel.  I'll look at my local library to see if they carry it.  I don't see a lot of books about British history or royalty there, but I did manage to find a book about Jane Rochford once.

Cindy
Always be yourself.  Unless you can be a unicorn.  Then always be a unicorn.

Eri

I just wanted to say I understand why Ann out of all Harry's wives gets the most attention I just think it's unfair especially since they love to hype their relationship as the biggest love story ever known to man kind when it was just a man who knew he couldn't have any more children from his wife and looked elsewhere  :hide: ... all his wives are fascinating and I wish we would hear more of them  <_< ...

cinrit

Ann also receives the most attention because of the changes she brought to the monarchy.  Because of her, the Church of England was founded.  Had there been no Anne Boleyn, the U.K. could still be Catholic.  She was also the mother of what many people (including my professor at the recent workshop I attended) believe was England's greatest female monarch, and one of the U.K.'s greatest monarchs in general.

Cindy
Always be yourself.  Unless you can be a unicorn.  Then always be a unicorn.

Eri

Quote from: cinrit on March 26, 2014, 05:25:47 PM
Ann also receives the most attention because of the changes she brought to the monarchy.  Because of her, the Church of England was founded.  Had there been no Anne Boleyn, the U.K. could still be Catholic.  She was also the mother of what many people (including my professor at the recent workshop I attended) believe was England's greatest female monarch, and one of the U.K.'s greatest monarchs in general.

Cindy
As I said I understand all of that what I have a problem with is their relationship being hyped out as some grand love story when in reality he had her head cut off when he understood she wouldn't give him a son ...

cinrit

^^ It was more than that, Eri.  He chased Anne for seven years before she gave in.  Was she playing a game with him?  Maybe so ... or maybe she was taking her sister, Mary, as an example of what happens when you give in too fast.  Be that as it may, Henry wooed her for all those years.  That's the part that makes it the "great love story" that people remember.  They remember that in the end, she was beheaded by the man who wanted her so much, but there can be no denial that he waited a very long time for her before marrying and then tiring of her. 

To be honest, though I do believe his obsession for a son was sincere, I think it was also a handy excuse for needing to divorce Catherine and marry Anne.  If not, he could have looked for another wife long before marrying Anne.

Cindy
Always be yourself.  Unless you can be a unicorn.  Then always be a unicorn.

amabel

 I think that the execution was kind of a sign that he had passionate feelings for her..he MIHGT have gotten away iwht divorcing her and sending her into seclusion, since she wasn't his wife in the eyes of many people..
But I think he was so fired up with Strong feelings about her, that he ended up needing to execute her Rather than just get rid of her legally.  He didn't want to think of her still alive.. and of course he was probably afraid of another ex wife trying to push the Rights of her child, as had happened iwht Catherine. I agree that the waiting 6 or 7 tears for her was another sign of love or at least obsession, since he could have possibly gotten an annulment more easily, if he hadn't been planning on marrying a lower class woman like Anne...

cinrit

It really is a good thread.  I very much enjoy it.  Thank you, Eri, for starting it.  Anne Boleyn is the reason I got interested in royalty when I was 15-16 years old.  She'll probably always be my favorite, and I take any chance I get to talk about the her, and the Tudors in general. :)

Cindy
Always be yourself.  Unless you can be a unicorn.  Then always be a unicorn.

Eri

Do you guys think he got with Ann just to have the son he wanted or was he that "in love" with her? I don't deny at the beginning she had him wrapped in her little finger but he got over her in time and fell "in love" with Jane while with Ann ... to me it's telling that she lost her head when it was clear the son wasn't coming but of course a lot of people would have a different take on it ... so what do you guys think Henry a man in love or son crazed?

cinrit

We've talked about Henry VIII being a romantic.  He married five of his wives for love.  He had to have been in love with Anne Boleyn to have chased her for so many years, and to take as many bold steps as he did in order to marry her.  Read his letters to her, especially the later ones as he got bolder:

Henry VIII's Love Letters to Anne Boleyn ยป The Anne Boleyn Files

Did he fall out of love with her?  Yes.  She was getting older and wasn't as attractive, and besides, he was tiring of her hysterical temperament.  Her inability to give him a son was another perfect excuse for him to get rid of her.  Henry always had a "reason" for whatever he did.  Had Anne given him a son, he would still have fallen out of love with her, but he would never have gotten rid of her in any way.

Cindy
Always be yourself.  Unless you can be a unicorn.  Then always be a unicorn.

Eri

^ So you think he leaving his wife that he loved and respected and he cutting Ann's head had nothing to do with him wanting a son? Too many coincidences ...

amabel

Of  course he wanted a son, but without Anne, he might have made the best of having a daughter.. OR he might have still sought an annulment but married another princess.  that would have been a far better option form a practical POV than insisting on marriage to a lady in waiting of relatively low birth who was unpopular with the common peole and with the upper classes as Anne was.
and I'm not sure why you keep mentioning his "cutting her head off".  Execution on a trumped up charge,given Anne's relative unpopularity and his past experience with Katherine, was probably the best way of getting out of the marriage for good and all and making sure that no one would be around to defend Elizabeth's claim ot the throne.

cinrit

Quote from: Eri on March 28, 2014, 07:54:08 AM
^ So you think he leaving his wife that he loved and respected and he cutting Ann's head had nothing to do with him wanting a son? Too many coincidences ... 

No, that isn't what I said.  Yes, of course he wanted a son, but I said that I think it was a handy excuse.  If his wanting a son was the only reason for the things he did, he could easily have gotten rid of Catherine long before he hooked up with Anne.  His passion for Anne spurred him on to do what he could have done years before.

Cindy
Always be yourself.  Unless you can be a unicorn.  Then always be a unicorn.

amabel

Think that wanting a son was the leaset of it.  Unlike other monarchs who didn't have a son, Henry doesn't seem to have really put any effort into trying to find a younger wife, for a long time. He toyed maybe with the idea of naming Richmond as his heir but he knew that would create more problems.  And given that Anne was not that young either, he woudl have had a better chance of a son with a younger wife.. in fact apart from Kat Howard none of H's wives were all that young..

Eri

Quote from: cinrit on March 28, 2014, 09:07:43 AM
Quote from: Eri on March 28, 2014, 07:54:08 AM
^ So you think he leaving his wife that he loved and respected and he cutting Ann's head had nothing to do with him wanting a son? Too many coincidences ... 

No, that isn't what I said.  Yes, of course he wanted a son, but I said that I think it was a handy excuse.  If his wanting a son was the only reason for the things he did, he could easily have gotten rid of Catherine long before he hooked up with Anne.  His passion for Anne spurred him on to do what he could have done years before.

Cindy
All I am saying is that I see a pattern here ...Ann entered the scene when Catherine couldn't give birth to an Heir anymore and Jane entered the scene when it was clear Ann wouldn't give him an Heir either ...

cinrit

Henry had 12 years between the birth of his and Catherine's last son and the appearance of Anne Boleyn.  Catherine gave birth to their last son (Henry, Duke of Cornwall) in 1514; he lived only a few hours.  Anne did not attract Henry's attention until early 1526.

Henry started flirting with Jane Seymour shortly after Catherine of Aragon's death, before Anne was delivered of her last child.  In fact, Anne happened to see Jane sitting on Henry's lap when she (Anne) was about five months pregnant.  And Jane, at least once, deliberately made a point of fidgeting with a locket, a gift from Henry with his portrait inside, in front of Anne.

I don't think Henry was thinking too hard about a son either of those times.

Cindy

Always be yourself.  Unless you can be a unicorn.  Then always be a unicorn.

Eri

^ I am not saying it was an obsession for him but it was his job to provide an Heir and he was failing ... let's not pretend his marriages were all about love ...

cinrit

Eri, did you read Henry's letters to Anne?  All of them? 

Cindy
Always be yourself.  Unless you can be a unicorn.  Then always be a unicorn.

Eri

^ No ... not all of them ... but I am sure he wrote the same things to Jane only no one cares ... there is a lot of building up Henry and Ann's relationship ... ultimately the only person Henry loved was Henry  :wink: ...

amabel

#121
Quote from: Eri on March 28, 2014, 04:17:46 PM
^ I am not saying it was an obsession for him but it was his job to provide an Heir and he was failing ... let's not pretend his marriages were all about love ...
Most of them were.  Catherine of Ar was not considered the ideal bride, being alot older than him.. but he insisted on marrying her.  He was obsessively in love with Anne for 6 years.   He was in love with Jane Seymour "on the rebound" from Anne, again she wasn't that young and he could probably have done better in finding a younger wife who would have more child bearing years.  His marriage ot Anne of Cleves had a lot to do with politics, Rather than strictly speaking producing another son.  With Kath Howard and Kat Parr, he was in love iwht KH and at least fond of K Parr. I doubt if he thought of producing children iwht his later wives...

Double post auto-merged: March 28, 2014, 07:34:57 PM


Quote from: Eri on March 28, 2014, 04:49:54 PM
^ No ... not all of them ... but I am sure he wrote the same things to Jane only no one cares ... there is a lot of building up Henry and Ann's relationship ... ultimately the only person Henry loved was Henry  :wink: ...
We have no evidence of what he wrote to Jane.  He was certainly in love with her, in a way but in a quieter way than his intense feelings for Anne. 

Double post auto-merged: March 29, 2014, 03:24:08 PM


While Henry DID have an obligation to try and provide an heir and it was a factor in many of his decisions, it seems to me that he was not as concerned about it as he might have been.  Maybe not even as worried as he SHOUDL have been,
I think that Cindy said that he was usually marrying for love and I think that that's true, with the proviso that of course his love was very shallow.  However he DID I think have a psychological  need to have a wife whom he thought of as a soul mate, in some way - a woman that he Had Strong feelings for.  he had relatively few mistresses, only 2 whose name are known to us.  he seems to have really preferred to be married, to a woman he was "in love" with, rather than sleeping with a lot of girls.

cinrit

QuoteYesterday I wrote about Anne Boleyn attending Easter Eve mass as Queen and now we fast-forward three years and find her taking part in Easter celebrations just over a month before her execution.

On the 13th April 1536, Maundy Thursday, Anne Boleyn did her duty as Queen, distributing Maundy money (alms) and washing the feet of poor people. It was traditional for the monarch and his consort to wash the feet of as many poor people as years they were old, as well as giving them purses of coins,

More: 13 April 1536 ? Anne Boleyn and Maundy Thursday

Cindy
Always be yourself.  Unless you can be a unicorn.  Then always be a unicorn.

Eri


cinrit

You're welcome, Eri.  I thought it might interest you. :flower:

Cindy
Always be yourself.  Unless you can be a unicorn.  Then always be a unicorn.