'He’s 31, I'm 19, he'll never look at me twice!'

[Duch_Luver_4ever]

Diana fretted over measuring up to worldly Camilla | Daily Mail Online

My comments to the highlights of the article for me in bold.


Sir William Heseltine, the Queen's former private secretary, recalls a weekend at Balmoral soon after the royal wedding when he came across Diana sitting all by herself under a tree engrossed in a book.

'I went over and said, "What on earth are you doing here?" says Sir William, 87. 'And she said in a rather mournful voice, "I'm just reading up about one of my predecessors, Queen Adelaide."'

Diana had been given the book by Charles. He was keen for her to know about Adelaide because when she married the future King William IV he was in his early fifties and she only half his age.

The parallels were obvious, with one additional plus: it was a happy marriage and they were devoted to each other.

Heres an example of her trying to learn about her place, contrary to some books that seem to claim she had nothing but disdain for "learning the ropes".

'I have a swimmer's physique and big shoulders, which I don't like.'

'She wasn't really curvy. She had more of a sportswoman's body.' Her holistic practitioner Nish Joshi reveals that Diana had curvature of the spine.

'This was noticeable in her deportment because she tended to walk with her shoulders hunched,' he says. 'It was exacerbated by her being self-conscious of how tall she was. I persuaded her to celebrate her height (almost 5ft 11in) and not bow her head and stoop or round her shoulders.

If she could have only seen herself through our eyes....I find it interesting a parallel between the body image/stooping and the bulimia, the poor girl is constantly trying to mold herself to what she thinks she should be based on others, trying to be less or to disappear, much to her own detriment. Such a shame she couldnt see that maybe she just was too much awesome for us, and rather than hide and wither away, she should have wondered if maybe we all deserved all that. One thing from todays time i wish she had was the more positive body image promoted

Privately, however, Mrs Parker Bowles had a great deal to say, none of which, it must be said, indicated any form of conscience that she might be stealing another woman's husband.

'She felt nothing but contempt for the princess,' according to a trusted royal aide. 'She used to refer to her as "that mad cow".' Some will view this as a shocking insight, indicating a streak of self-serving ruthlessness.

But then, as her former nanny Mary Clarke sees it now, 'That young girl was taken for a total ride. She wasn't mature enough to cope.'

Diana might have seen off a lesser woman, but Mrs Parker Bowles was always going to be a formidable foe who had, as one of her closest friends puts it, 'seen it all – and done most of it'. She also understood men drawn from the British upper classes whose marriages – like her own – were euphemistically described as 'open'.

'Diana never understood this concept of an "open" marriage,' says Mary Clarke. 'To her, marriage was a matter of love, trust and loyalty. She would have been thrilled that Catherine and William so clearly love each other, happy that they have what she never managed to have.'

Taken for a total ride sums it up pretty well, and the seen it all and done most of it, is an unflattering if accurate depiction of her rival.  :lol:

Diana, of course, began to see other men only when she realised that Charles had returned to Camilla. As ever, Mrs Parker Bowles was dismissive about the princess. 'At least I got that out of my system before I married,' she was known to say when Diana's romantic life cropped up – a curious observation, you may think, from a woman who was cheating on her own husband with the Prince of Wales.


Obviously not as she saw another man all through her marriage, also a bit ironic given that Dianas whole purpose for being there is that she didnt "get it out of her system before she got married", and I think it was perhaps used as a barb to defect from her mind that her lack of virtue kept her from marrying the man she really wanted until her competition was gotten rid of and society degenerated enough to look the other way, Wallace must be spinning in her grave.


(Charles: 'I need you several times a week.' Camilla: 'I need you all the week, all the time.'). Charles also memorably tells her: 'Your great achievement is to love me.'

This plus the whole expecting Diana to be thrilled to watch him do paperwork really sums up Charles attitude towards women, and what he expected, and how much Diana's popularity was the kryptonite to the marriage, as what he wanted was someone whos top achievement was to love him, or as put anther way "all she ever did was say yes to me".

Diana didnt know it at the time, and back then she might have felt that was all she could hope for, but she ended up showing that saying yes to Charles was only the start, it opened the door for her to do so much more and better things, listen to the people whos lives she touched in recent docs and past ones, theres so many people that were able to go on when they had no hope because of her.


So who came out on top? History will say it was Camilla. She, after all, got the prince. But not before her reputation had been savaged by Diana

The question that is still stimulating drawing room debate two decades after Diana's death is whether, had she been more mature when she married Charles, she might have had the weaponry to see off her experienced rival. One incident suggests she might have.

He phoned to ask if he could use her loo and she said, 'Fine, come in.'

'He was just about to get in the car when the princess shouted out within earshot of the escort, "Same time next week, Charles?" and winked. The prince went bright red. That told me there was still something between them, something, I suspect, he knew he'd lost.'

Well she always had a witty, cheeky side, so I dont know about that, but it might have been that maybe both of them had wished she could have met him when she was older and more mature. also like most ppl once somethings gone, we tend to value it more.

[Curryong]

So, calling her lover's wife 'Mad cow' comparing their bodies, with hers coming up favourably to Diana's 'scrawny' or 'muscly' physique!! A comparison with a woman considered one of the most beautiful in the world!

'Seen it all and done most of it' describes Camilla perfectly. As does her observation that she had 'got most of that out of her system before marriage'. Got what out of the way? Obviously not sleeping with married men or betraying her own husband, as she slept with Charles after Laura's birth and then recommenced after Charles's spare Harry was born.

Camilla's a piece of work all right, and Charles isn't too much better. And if she called Diana 'a mad cow' (reference probably to mad cow disease) then Charles ought to be damn well ashamed of himself.

And I maintain, those two have no right to sit on the throne as double divorcees. Richard Palmer as Royal correspondent for the 'Express' has stated that CH has maintained the same attitude since 2005, viz that Camilla will be Princess Consort. More than enough for this venal, vain and immoral woman.

[royalanthropologist]

Why or why didn't someone just stop that entire courtship/marriage nonsense. It was a monumental mistake. Charles was clearly attached to Camilla and was going through the motions with this one. Whatever Diana did or did not do, she would never have his heart.

Charles ought to have been decisive and said: "I do not love this girl and do not want to marry her". It was not an absolute must that he marries Diana. The 30 year old deadline was quite crazy too. A man can marry and father kids right up to the day he dies. It was not as if his biological clock was ticking. The whole thing sounds unpleasant.

Camilla was quite cruel in this case. I wonder whether the animosity started after 1984 or she had always hated Diana right from the start? The vitriol seems particularly vicious and the name calling e.g. "Mad Cow" which seems to indicate that Charles was actually describing the rows in the marriage and had already written off Diana has having mental health problems.

Curryong had me until this statement "those two have no right to sit on the throne as double divorcees". Divorce has nothing to do with it. Even sexual morality has nothing to do with it. A monarchy is simply a question of being the first born and that's it.

I also query the "betraying her own husband" bit. APB was one of the most promiscuous men in that class and deserved absolutely no consideration in this. If Camilla cheated on him, she was well within her rights since he had been doing that for most of their married life.

Having said that: I think Camilla has much to regret and apologize for, reading some of this stuff. It really was not her finest hour. 

[Duch_Luver_4ever]

I think youll have won a lot of friends I hope with that post  :consoling1: I like that we both can see the good and bad in our fav royals.

Given the estimated length of time HM would live, the "30 or bust" thing seems silly in retrospect, especially given the age differences in other royal unions. He even might have been able to wait out society changes and been able to marry Camilla first go around. win win all around.

I think it was likely from the start that Camilla didnt like Diana, now im not saying this to make her look bad, on the contrary, I not heartless enough to see that she loved him and im sure she hated to see him get married & vet his potential bride, even though they knew it was what had to be. Also of course, post marriage it likely got ratcheted up with Charles constant complaints about Diana (how many of us at work, for example hear someone complaining about their spouse, and how different the story would be if we could also talk to the other person).

But stuff in that article is kind of the crux of why Diana fans arent thrilled with Camilla. Its one thing if two world weary, seasoned, women are determined to fight it out on equal footing for a man, but for them to dupe and count on a young girls romantic fantasies, and then crush them, all the while making her feel the fool is quite cruel. Also undermining her and destroying a marriage that at the time was vital to the RF and country's future, necessitating a lot of patchwork.

[LouisFerdinand]

I could not believe it when I read: For his part, Charles wrote to a friend, 'All I can say is that marriage is very jolly.'   
What happened to the romance?     
 
:cloud9: :cloud9: :nocomment: :shemademe: :doublewave: :willskate: :stars: :stars: :lovestars: :lovestars:

[amabel]

Marriage is not about romance.  Its about tyring to get used to each other, living together... Romance isn't a foundation for marriage..  It can spark an initial relationship but once you're married romance has a way of disappearing and if all you have is sexual attraction or the excitement of "a new thrilling courshtip," its problaby not going to last.

[tiaras]

It can spark an initial relationship

I agree but romance has to exist so you can recall those feelings. This is why I don't believe people who say I married him and then learnt to love him/her. I don't buy it. Charles wasn't romantic towards her at all. 'Whatever love means' at the engagement interview shows he only saw it as a contractual relationship because 'it was time'.

[sandy]

Why or why didn't someone just stop that entire courtship/marriage nonsense. It was a monumental mistake. Charles was clearly attached to Camilla and was going through the motions with this one. Whatever Diana did or did not do, she would never have his heart.

Charles ought to have been decisive and said: "I do not love this girl and do not want to marry her". It was not an absolute must that he marries Diana. The 30 year old deadline was quite crazy too. A man can marry and father kids right up to the day he dies. It was not as if his biological clock was ticking. The whole thing sounds unpleasant.

Camilla was quite cruel in this case. I wonder whether the animosity started after 1984 or she had always hated Diana right from the start? The vitriol seems particularly vicious and the name calling e.g. "Mad Cow" which seems to indicate that Charles was actually describing the rows in the marriage and had already written off Diana has having mental health problems.

Curryong had me until this statement "those two have no right to sit on the throne as double divorcees". Divorce has nothing to do with it. Even sexual morality has nothing to do with it. A monarchy is simply a question of being the first born and that's it.

I also query the "betraying her own husband" bit. APB was one of the most promiscuous men in that class and deserved absolutely no consideration in this. If Camilla cheated on him, she was well within her rights since he had been doing that for most of their married life.

Having said that: I think Camilla has much to regret and apologize for, reading some of this stuff. It really was not her finest hour. 

The point is Philip was not forcing Charles to do anything. It was that he make up his mind and one option was to stop seeing Diana if he did not really want to commit to her. Which I think was good advice and decidedly not forcing him. Charles was 32 and a grown up. I agree that he should never have proposed to Diana and quietly dropped her. She would not have been the first relationship that he had that involved a break up. It could have been done quietly and discreetly.

Diana had no "mental health" issues other than the bulimia which she did get under control. Suppose Charles had an illness would Diana be expected to be "tired of it" and dump him? Marriage is supposed to be in sickness and in health.

Camilla and Andrew Parker Bowles rampantly cheated on each other during their courtship. Why would Camilla be surprised that Andrew would continue the pattern and so would she when she and Charles got involved late in the seventies. There was always divorce. But I think the arrangement suited them and APB is still very much in royal circles. I don't think APB should be scapegoated. Camilla and APB knew each other well since 1966 and she knew he cheated and he knew she did too.
Double post auto-merged: August 15, 2017, 02:19:55 PM



I agree, tiaras.  I think that saying a person could "learn to love" the partner is unrealistic and a recipe for disaster. What if the "love" does not happen, they are married then. Charles saw it as a way to get heirs and "maybe" he "might" love her in future.
Double post auto-merged: August 15, 2017, 02:22:17 PM

Marriage is not about romance.  Its about tyring to get used to each other, living together... Romance isn't a foundation for marriage..  It can spark an initial relationship but once you're married romance has a way of disappearing and if all you have is sexual attraction or the excitement of "a new thrilling courshtip," its problaby not going to last.

Romance can be a part of marriage. But love and commitment are essential. Charles admitted later he preferred Camilla when he married Diana.
Double post auto-merged: August 15, 2017, 02:23:07 PM

I could not believe it when I read: For his part, Charles wrote to a friend, 'All I can say is that marriage is very jolly.'   
What happened to the romance?     
 
:cloud9: :cloud9: :nocomment: :shemademe: :doublewave: :willskate: :stars: :stars: :lovestars: :lovestars:

If only Charles had continuing writing these positive letters to his friends. When he started complaining about his wife's popularity, his friends started turning on her.

[TLLK]

Marriage is not about romance.  Its about tyring to get used to each other, living together... Romance isn't a foundation for marriage..  It can spark an initial relationship but once you're married romance has a way of disappearing and if all you have is sexual attraction or the excitement of "a new thrilling courshtip," its problaby not going to last.

The romance part is easy IMVHO but it's not likely to be a stable foundation. Friendship, shared interests, mutual respect/understanding, willingness to compromise and good communication are desirable traits in a marriage.

[Duch_Luver_4ever]

Agreed  :goodpost: not giving Charles a way out, but when you understand their dynamic, you can see why Charles felt forced to marry after the letter, heck he carried it around for years and would show it to ppl when asked about the marriage.

True there was no gun to his head, but parents early on have such a disproportionate power over kids they are very good at crafting a shorthand to gain a childs compliance without having to use force all the time (just like kids are adept at playing parents off against each other, etc). The Jesuits have a saying give me the boy and ill show you the man, meaning that by 6-8 yrs old, much of the subconscious/psychological wiring is done.

Also royal marriages had a long history of being done for reasons other than love, so Charles had less idealized goals for his marriage than Diana did, and they used that to their advantage to get her on board as likely the last British virgin of legal age LOL.

Part of what Charles may have meant of learning to love was things like  some have said building of common interests, goals, passions, etc. Charles already had his romantic slot filled with Camilla in his heart so he wasnt looking for that from her, which is a shame, had his heart been more open to her, I think he might have fallen like a lot of us did.

Also a lot of upper crust marriages at least in the past, anyway, decided after kids or at least a male heir was born, that they would go their separate ways with their life, but stay married for appearances, inheritances, etc. I think the discrepancy of stories each was told growing up counts a lot for their approach to marriage.

With Charles we have Dickie telling him to play around, and god knows what he said about how to carry oneself in a marriage (we hear little about that, but lots about the kind of wife he should have though), we have him im sure studying history for examples that support his desire to satisfy his wishes (i wont be the only PoW to not have a mistress!).

With Diana we have her romance novels, and sadly her family didnt let her know what might happen if she married someone in the station of men she wanted to choose from. So she had a very idealized version of marriage (not saying thats a bad thing, there were several men who would have longed to give her that, but most of the men in her dancecard were likely to be closer to charles ideas than the men in her romance novels).

For the longterm, a marriage has to be able to last through periods of disagreements, illness,job loss, growing apart, etc. without a solid base of common values and experiences, its putting it under an added strain which we saw played out with C&D.

[sandy]

I suppose those who saw the letter did not dare say, I don't think he is saying you were forced. In any case he was 32 and not a little boy anymore. It was his call and he could have moved on. He had other past girlfriends that he moved on from. It was not as if Diana was the first and only one.

Her mother married at about the same age as Diana did and to an older man. She would not be in any position to preach to Diana about marrying young. In fact, she told her biographer she felt it was "time" for Diana to get married. Diana was still a teenager and they do read romance novels.

[Duch_Luver_4ever]

Well, you kind of made my point, he did have other girlfriends, and time was running out, if he hadnt picked Diana, hed have likely been put in the situation kind of like DoE was, catching the eye of a 13 year old girl and waiting out till she became old enough to marry, hoping she kept her virtue intact. maybe even having to go round to the other monarchies for a wife, like a person going round to borrow a cup of sugar.

[sandy]

Well there was not a big age difference between Philip and Elizabeth, both were teens when they met. The wait was not long.

I do think there were other names on the "list" of eligible women. He might have even prevailed on Amanda to change her mind.

[Duch_Luver_4ever]

DoE was at least 18, id have to check vs his b-day but might have been 19, HM was only 12-13, so he had to was 5-6 years for her to be 18. Now those of you with kids, if your 12 year old girl said she met a nice 18-19 yr old who wants to date her, what would you think????

Amanda would have to be very loyal to family vs her own desires to change her mind on Charles, he would have had to look for at least a 16 yr old to wait out post Diana. Diana was the exception as far as keeping her virtue, she knew it would be of value later, post sexual revolution of the late 60s that was an increasingly rare opinion.

It wasnt impossible that hed have found someone, but given the pressure he felt he was under, waiting was an unlikely and thought to be very unpleasant option for him. I often think if the DoE has spent more time and effort molding his eldest son into a man vs letting his creepy christopher Lee look-alike relative do it, the whole mess might have been avoided.

[sandy]

Philip played the field even dating an American heiress and actress, Cobina Wright, Jr.  who was just about his age. Elizabeth fell for Philip in 1939, so she was 13.  They did correspond during the war.

I just found this article about Philip's girlfriends

The romances of young Prince Philip

Supposedly Kanga and Camilla made up a list of eligible women for Charles and Diana was top of the list of both. I don't know who else was on that list--but probably the next one on it would have gotten Charles' attention if he broke up with Diana.

[amabel]

The romance part is easy IMVHO but it's not likely to be a stable foundation. Friendship, shared interests, mutual respect/understanding, willingness to compromise and good communication are desirable traits in a marriage.

of course they are.  Marriages don't need romance, they need friendship, love, preferably shared interests and compatible temperaments and willingness to compromise.
Arranged marraiges can wrok very well and grow into a deep love, provided people are willing to make the effort.  Diana and Charles did try, a bit but the differences between them were too big, the stress of their public positon added to the strain and neither was used to adjusting to another person.
They clearly had an intitial attraction, there was a spark.  He found her attractive, she was in love with him.  but there were too many differences and too much distance...

[tiaras]

True there was no gun to his head, but parents early on have such a disproportionate power over kids they are very good at crafting a shorthand to gain a childs compliance without having to use force all the time (just like kids are adept at playing parents off against each other, etc). The Jesuits have a saying give me the boy and ill show you the man, meaning that by 6-8 yrs old, much of the subconscious/psychological wiring is done.

Omg yes his parents are as much to blame for that semi forced/arranged marriage with Diana.
Btw OT: as someone who grew up in one of those abstinence is the only way or you're burning in hell religious families, I am no stranger to parents having undue influence over their kids.

[amabel]

He had a duty as POW, to make a suitable marriage, and at the time, ti was expected that his bride would be well bred, Protestant and willing to fit in with the RF.. and for her to have no serious romantic past.  So the odds were that that meant she was gong to be some years younger than her husband, sicne Charles felt that 30 was the ideal age.  As he said to reporters, "I can't live with a girl like you chaps can, I have to get it right first time".
It was possible that he might have gotten it right, but he picked wrongly. Diana was sutiable in many respects.  She was well born, she was of the right religion, had relatives at court.  She was quiet and not a party girl, and she was not inot a career.  She clearly wanted to marry young and saw the ideal life as getting married and having children.  She was old fashioned in that respect.. but she did not share Charles' interests.  She didn't have the maturity to cope with marriage and she was emotionally fragile and volatile and not able to cope, with the massive press attention,with a man older than her and somewhat of a loner who had already met a woman who seemed better suited to him, - if only he hadn't been a prince...

[sandy]

Charles knew that she did not share a lot of his interests. The whole world before the marriage knew Diana did not hunt and was afraid of horses. The news coverage of the time was included in some of the recent documentaries. She was not in his circle since she was 12 years younger. He wanted heirs and she filled the bill: from an aristo family with some royal bloodlines, fertile and having no experience A plus also was that she worked with children as a nanny and at a kindergarten.

A 30 year old woman would have a difficult time dealing with Charles and his attachment to another woman. Anybody would. I can't imagine a young woman barely out of her teens coping with it.

Diana did do extremely well with her royal work and was popular which seemed to be a big no no for Charles. Perhaps he needed some counseling in coping with his jealousy of his own young wife.

[LouisFerdinand]

Would it have helped if Charles had lengthy conversations with Diana to try to learn what her real interests were?

[Duch_Luver_4ever]

It would have helped most people, but I dont think he was coming from a position of trying to learn about her and have him fit into her life, or a life together, he was thinking of it as how is she going to fit into MY life.

In that sense, if he could have gotten out of his own way, it might have helped, but was likely just putting a bandaid on a mortal wound.

[Curryong]

It would have helped most people, but I dont think he was coming from a position of trying to learn about her and have him fit into her life, or a life together, he was thinking of it as how is she going to fit into MY life.

In that sense, if he could have gotten out of his own way, it might have helped, but was likely just putting a bandaid on a mortal wound.

You've expressed it perfectly Duch_ IMO. For Charles there was no searching for a woman for her own sake, I've always felt. It was always, for him, how is MY wife going to fit into MY life, my hobbies, my interests, my friends as well as my way of life. Of course the last is vitally important, and many of the others can be explained away by Charles being a loner and an old fashioned man whose life was already set.
In a personal sense Charles really didn't have to marry. He had a cook to make his meals, valets to look after his clothes, aides at his beck and call researching his projects and engagements, and friends who hung on his every word and accommodated him, ditto for mistress as flatterer, booster confidante and sex provider. Even her husband was just a minor irritant!

He had and has little room for any views but his own, he has been the sun around which the minor planets revolve, so any wife who had independent thoughts or views would have had a hard time of it, let alone someone as yet half-formed at 19. Charles thought and hoped that at 19/20 Diana would fit into it all, into his orbit, like a vine winding round a pergola. He couldn't comprehend her popularity or the fact that she didn't develop in the way he expected her to. So she irritated him in the end.

[Duch_Luver_4ever]

thanks, and a very true point about his domestic life, curryong, one ive mentioned before. diana wouldnt have the normal levers to work with that most of us have to interact, depend on, and try to get along with our spouses to meet our daily life, but he didnt have to do that, so it made it even easier to stay an insulated bachelor, on top of everyone pardon the pun, but currying his favor and telling him how special he is, etc.

I think he couldnt comprehend that she wanted a "regular" married life, similar to the romance novels or ideas she had from them, etc. He was not prepared for someone to seriously challenge him, like she might have seen her friends, or even Jane or Sarah do, and expect she was going to have the "happy wife, happy life" advantage most regular women do when they marry.

She didnt have that hold of being able to make life a domestic chore if he didnt play along, and where he already had other players for the bedroom, she couldnt use that as a tool to make him come round either.

Really her only option, and idk if at 20 she was ready to play this game, was to delay or avoid getting pregnant, now that was really the only chip she had to use against him until she figured out how to use her popularity and the press, im sure W&H are glad she didnt, but it makes an interesting "what if"......