The education of King Edward VII's sons

[LouisFerdinand]

As Prince of Wales, King Edward VII of Great Britain set about the education of his own heir.     
His initial plan was to send Prince Albert Victor to public school and university, and his second son George to Dartmouth and a naval career.   
Their grandmother Queen Victoria had hoped that Prince Eddy would be sent to Wellington.

[Curryong]

As Prince of Wales, King Edward VII of Great Britain set about the education of his own heir.     
His initial plan was to send Prince Albert Victor to public school and university, and his second son George to Dartmouth and a naval career.   
Their grandmother Queen Victoria had hoped that Prince Eddy would be sent to Wellington.

^ That was because the Sainted One, Albert the Prince Consort, had had quite a bit to do with the founding of the school and was on the Board of Governors.
Personally, I think Edward VII had either ADD or some form of dyslexia or learning difficulties as he hated lessons and was beaten for it.

Neither of his sons were intellectual in any way whatsoever so I don't think they would have done well wherever they were sent for their education. George was a hands-on sort of character and being a naval officer was absolutely the best thing possible for him. He loved it and did well.

[LouisFerdinand]

In 1883, Prince Albert Victor was sent to complete his education at Trinity College, Cambridge.         
His tutor, James Kenneth Stephen, an English poet, was unimpressed with the Prince's abilities.     
Mr. Stephen declared, 'I do not think he can possibly much benefit from attending lectures at Cambridge. He hardly knows the meaning of the words to read.'   
Prince Eddy was excused from his exams and left Cambridge in 1885.

[Curryong]

^ Prince Eddy was an amiable sort of person but quite dozy in personality, very little energy. It was said that he had inherited some deafness from his mother but that certainly wouldn't have prevented him from reading. Like his father however, he was no intellectual and like his nephew Edward VIII, I think Britain dodged a bullet by his not becoming King, tragic though it was for his family.

[LouisFerdinand]

After Cambridge University, Prince Albert Victor was placed in the army.   
His instructors soon realized he could not manage even the simplest parade ground drills.

[Curryong]

Yes Prince Eddy was dismissed by his relative, the bone-headed Duke of Cambridge, as 'an inveterate dawdler, Never ready, never there!'.

The Duke had served in the Crimean War, (though not without criticism) and was astonished to find that Prince A.V. knew nothing about the war when he chatted to him about it.

Eddy was completely apathetic about the discipline and  routine, called his Colonel 'a lunatic' and spent as much time as possible away from the Army once he had 'graduated'.

[LouisFerdinand]

In 1881 when Prince Eddy and Prince George returned to England, Queen Victoria disliked the fact that her grandsons could not speak French or German.       
Albert Victor and George spent six months in Lausanne. They did not learn another language.

[amabel]

well unlikely that Albert Victor would learn anything because he was pretty much "defective" in term of learning. George V was no intellectual giant, but AV was basically pretty much brainless.  I think that he would have been a disaster as King...

[LouisFerdinand]

For three years from 1879, Prince Albert Victor and Prince George served on HMS Bacchante, accompanied by John Keale Dalton, their tutor.

[Curryong]

For three years from 1879, Prince Albert Victor and Prince George served on HMS Bacchante, accompanied by John Keale Dalton, their tutor.

It was on that very long voyage that the young Prince George saw a fully rigged ghost ship going past the Bacchante while he was on watch. It was also seen by others.

1881, July 11: King George V sees a Phantom Ship | Anomalies: the Strange & Unexplained

I've always been fascinated by that episode, and wonder whether this very down to earth man was a bit psychic. He also heard the footsteps of King George III at the Library at Windsor much later in life.

[TLLK]

Very interesting story @Curryong and I have to admit that a little shiver ran down my spine  when I read the article.

[Princess Cassandra]

^ That was because the Sainted One, Albert the Prince Consort, had had quite a bit to do with the founding of the school and was on the Board of Governors.
Personally, I think Edward VII had either ADD or some form of dyslexia or learning difficulties as he hated lessons and was beaten for it.

Neither of his sons were intellectual in any way whatsoever so I don't think they would have done well wherever they were sent for their education. George was a hands-on sort of character and being a naval officer was absolutely the best thing possible for him. He loved it and did well.

This is such an interesting subject! Edward VII, I agree, was probably ADD, but it was made worse by his father and tutors. I've seen scans of his own handwriting, and he had a good vocabulary and working knowledge of English grammar and spelling. He was able to put his thoughts across with a minimum of words. I think one of the issues with his children might have been nutrition of his mother, who was very thin. Of course, Eddie was premature and that can sometimes be a reason for low intelligence, but one of his biographies says his hearing was the reason for not doing well in school. Georgie did a little better, but he struggled in school. We'll never know if they, too, had learning disabilities.
Double post auto-merged: February 26, 2020, 09:47:52 PM

Sorry, I meant to say that one of the issues might have been the nutrition of THEIR mother, not Edward VII's mother.  Queen Alexandra was very, very thin. If she didn't eat well when expecting her children their development could have been affected, or maybe they had high lead levels? Something was wrong, clearly, with Eddie, and as mentioned Georgie was not at all academic and is said to be a very simple man.

[Curryong]

 Princess, I've never thought of Alexandra's nutrition and slim physique being anything to do with the possible learning difficulties of her children. Of course genetics may have come into it. Alexandra's parents were both slender,  and her male siblings were tall, thin and gangly.

It was remarked that Albert Victor very much physically resembled his uncle Frederick who became King of Denmark in his turn. George and his sisters and his cousin Nicky and several of Nicky's siblings were small and thin, as was Marie, their mother and Alex's sister.

I don't think the Danish Royal family were renowned for their intellectual interests though I never heard that any of them really struggled through their education. Victoria once noted in her diary that Alex 'never picked up a book', and so she had that in common with her husband! As far as her eldest child Albert Victor was concerned, I do think he had hearing difficulties. I've read some of both his and George's private letters and as adults they were both able to write expressive and interesting letters.

Certainly the George V generation of the BRF (and later ones) weren't exactly known for their academic interests, but in Victoria's children learning difficulties seems to have hit Edward VII the hardest. Qute sad as his sister the future Empress Frederick took after her father and was deeply intellectually curious all her life, (Edward adored her but that probably added an inferiority complex when he was young) and Alice was no slouch either.

Albert of course couldn't understand it, thought his son was being perverse and stubborn and beat him for being inattentive and disruptive in class. It was behaviour like his throwing things at his brother in class, flying into tempers because he didn't want to write essays, and later in life being bored extremely easily and incredibly restless, that makes me think that he had ADD.

I do think that Edward and Alexandra's attitude that formal education wasn't terribly important in how their children turned out did affect their offspring. Queen Victoria once described those grandchildren as 'wild as hawks'. And Edward and Alexandra would often leave governesses behind and let George and Mary's young children romp about instead when they looked after them when their parents' were on tour.

I really think that George V and Prince AV would have have benefited from attending boarding school. Their very earnest tutor doesn't seem to have captured their imaginations at all, and they may have benefited from being with other boys. However, it was unknown in those days for senior members of the BRF to go to boarding school.

[QueenAlex]

I don't think that Edward VII was STUPID but he wasn't IMO very clever.. but I agree that possibly he had something like ADD  which coupled with being forced to study and learn much more than he had the capability for, drove him into tempers and bad behaviour.   Certianly 3 of his sisters, Alice, Vicky and Louise were quite intelligent (don't know much about Beatrice or Helena) and possibly the pressure of being heir.. with a clever older sister Vicky added to Edward's feelings of inferiority and anger and he refused to try at times.
Albrt Victor does seem to have had severe learning diffiiculities, may have been a bit deaf and  was spoiled by Alix so he  was a weak character who would probably barely have been capable of being King..

[TLLK]

Queen Alexandra was deaf so I wonder if Albert Victor's hearing loss was congenital? As to his learning disability, I do wonder if his premature birth was a factor.

[QueenAlex]

Queen Alexandra was deaf so I wonder if Albert Victor's hearing loss was congenital? As to his learning disability, I do wonder if his premature birth was a factor.

I think it may have been, as I believe Alix's mother was alos partly deaf.. (and I believe that Maud of Wales had some similar problems.. so it was probably hereditary.
Perhaps AV suffered some birth injury during his premature birth?  dont know if there's a correlation between premature birth and leanring disabilities.  But he was a  bit mor than "just very stupid".  George V wasn't very smart, neither was Alexandra herself but AV seems to have been a few notches wrose.

[Curryong]

Albert Victor's letters to friends (I'm not talking about official missives) don't show a stupid man at all. Most of them are humorous and expressive.

Alexandra seems to have had a history of giving birth somewhat prematurely. After one of her children's births Edward's brother Affie wrote to him expressing surprise that it had happened so soon and Queen Victoria was always quite annoyed that with Alex she couldn't do the sitting by the bedside stroking the arm business she did during all her daughters' labour (minus Louise who was childless.)

Some in the family suspected that Alex didn't want her mother in law there and so she fudged the prospective birthdates when asked. There may have been some of that, but as all her children had small birthweights and were described by Victoria as puny and 'pigeon chested' I also believe that all of them were somewhat premature. And none of them were extremely healthy all their lives or lived to a great age.

Prince Eddie (AV) was wrapped in cotton wool and kept in a cradle by a roaring fire for days after his birth. However, at no point was it believed that he was on the verge of dying. He had a good appetite, fed well and was described by those around as a strong little baby.

Louise went rather deaf quite early. When Victoria met her at an early stage of the negotiations about Alex, Victoria noted that she was 'quite deaf'. I've read that Alex's form of deafness was exacerbated by pregnancy and the birth of children (sorry, can't remember the medical term for it) but as both she and Louise had six children each that may well have been a factor.

Alex was 28 when her last child (a boy that didn't survive, Alexander John) was born and after that there were no more children, so it's logical to assume, given the uncertain contraception of the times, that marital relations between her and Edward ceased from then on.

Of course AV was a male and that didn't apply but I'd say that the deafness did come from Alex's mother's family. The only bio I know of Louise is in Danish, a language I'm not familiar with, but it would be interesting to find out if her mother and sisters went deaf early. Maud only had the one child and had many health issues so any hereditary thing may have been emphasised.

[QueenAlex]

Albert Victor's letters to friends (I'm not talking about official missives) don't show a stupid man at all. Most of them are humorous and expressive.

Alexandra seems to have had a history of giving birth somewhat prematurely. After one of her children's births Edward's brother Affie wrote to him expressing surprise that it had happened so soon and Queen Victoria was always quite annoyed that with Alex she couldn't do the sitting by the bedside stroking the arm business she did during all her daughters' labour (minus Louise who was childless.)

Some in the family suspected that Alex didn't want her mother in law there and so she fudged the prospective birthdates when asked. There may have been some of that, but as all her children had small birthweights and were described by Victoria as puny and 'pigeon chested' I also believe that all of them were somewhat premature. And none of them were extremely healthy all their lives or lived to a great age.

Prince Eddie (AV) was wrapped in cotton wool and kept in a cradle by a roaring fire for days after his birth. However, at no point was it believed that he was on the verge of dying. He had a good appetite, fed well and was described by those around as a strong little baby.

L

Of course AV was a male and that didn't apply but I'd say that the deafness did come from Alex's mother's family. The only bio I know of Louise is in Danish, a language I'm not familiar with, but it would be interesting to find out if her mother and sisters went deaf early. Maud only had the one child and had many health issues so any hereditary thing may have been emphasised.

Probably Alix had some hormonal condition, which caused her to give birth early quite often. I don't think that she fudged the dates to avoid Q Victoria.. and I think that after 6 pregnancies and problems iwht her own helath, yes she and Bertie ceased to have sex after their last child died...
Im surprised about this Albert Vic letters thing because generally reports about Albert Vic certainly give the impression that he had difficulty learning and that he was extremely lethargic, so they kept him with George because George seemed to inspire him to make some kind of effort.. So it seems odd that most people seem to have given the impression that he wasn't intelligent, that he had difficulty learning, and that he did not seem capable or wiling to make any effort doing anything much...

[Curryong]

I don't know about 'most people'. I've read a couple of bios on him which discusses all those impressions. They both agree he wasn't a terribly energetic individual but wasn't a fool either and that his very premature birth and hearing difficulties (which don't seem to have been picked up) were responsible for most of the impressions of the time that he was a dawdly individual. That's what's come down to us.

I'll have to look up my bio on Kindle to quote a letter or two. It's a pity that the Alexander Palace history forum has disappeared as that was invaluable in so many ways on past royals and had a lot on Pr AV.  I do think that George was a much better fit as British monarch but I do feel that much of the info on Eddy over the years has been exaggerated.

[QueenAlex]

I don't know about 'most people'. I've read a couple of bios on him which discusses all those impressions. They both agree he wasn't a terribly energetic individual but wasn't a fool either and that his very premature birth and hearing difficulties (which don't seem to have been picked up) were responsible for most of the impressions of the time that he was a dawdly individual. That's what's come down to us.

I'll have to look up my bio on Kindle to quote a letter or two. It's a pity that the Alexander Palace history forum has disappeared as that was invaluable in so many ways on past royals and had a lot on Pr AV.  I do think that George was a much better fit as British monarch but I do feel that much of the info on Eddy over the years has been exaggerated.

I've never heard anything to indicate (other than what you 've said about his letters etc) that he did not have problems.  George V was no Einstein but he seemed to be more energetic and a much stronger character.  But if he was not that clever,... if he was smarter than AV, then AV must have been something of a slow learner. I don't know if premature birth would have left him so "dawdly" and lethargic 20 years later.. and it was certainly said, as far as  I recall, that he was kept with George because G did stimulate him a bit...

[LouisFerdinand]

After the birth of Prince Alexander John, did Princess Alexandra's medical physician recommend that she not have any more children?

[Curryong]

After the birth of Prince Alexander John, did Princess Alexandra's medical physician recommend that she not have any more children?

I would say that having six children in approximately seven years did have its effects on Alex's body, especially as she had a very serious illness immediately after Louise's birth in 1867 which left her lame and increased her deafness. Also, all her children were premature. The future George V for instance was born a month before the due date.

So I do think that the doctors did have a long confidential talk with the POW and then with the Princess following that last sad birth and it was decided that marital relations should cease.

Constitutionally there were five surviving children in the direct Wales  line so it wasn't an emergency situation as say the Napoleon III and Empress Eugenie was after the birth of their sole child, the Prince Imperial. No family papers, doctors' letters or other documentation has come down to us about it, though.

Both Edward and Alexandra directed that all such correspondence be destroyed after their deaths and this was done. Biographers of Alexandra especially have found very slim pickings indeed in British archives.

The Danish Royal family are apparently notorious for rarely giving permission to examine their archives. There are hundreds of letters between Alex and her sister Marie Tsaritsa of Russia still waiting in St Petersburg to be examined by biographers, so something may turn up eventually regarding various aspects of Alex and Edward's marriage and other family matters but it will probably take years.

[QueenAlex]

There's no real way of knowing. I don't dobut that sex between them ceased but that might have just been a mutual decision.. but there were plenty of heirs..not just the 5 Wales children but the numerous ones produced by Victoria..

[Curryong]

There's no real way of knowing. I don't dobut that sex between them ceased but that might have just been a mutual decision.. but there were plenty of heirs..not just the 5 Wales children but the numerous ones produced by Victoria..

Of course there were plenty of heirs from Victoria's other offspring, but in my post I pointed specifically to the Wales heirs as it is Edward VIIs sons that are heading the thread.

[Princess Cassandra]

I don't think that Edward VII was STUPID but he wasn't IMO very clever.. but I agree that possibly he had something like ADD  which coupled with being forced to study and learn much more than he had the capability for, drove him into tempers and bad behaviour.   Certianly 3 of his sisters, Alice, Vicky and Louise were quite intelligent (don't know much about Beatrice or Helena) and possibly the pressure of being heir.. with a clever older sister Vicky added to Edward's feelings of inferiority and anger and he refused to try at times.
Albrt Victor does seem to have had severe learning diffiiculities, may have been a bit deaf and  was spoiled by Alix so he  was a weak character who would probably barely have been capable of being King..

He surprised everyone when he became king and seemed to have a talent or understanding about foreign affairs. When I read that I thought about the description of his father's (and his father's advisor) educational regime for him...different from his brothers' and sisters' education, because he was the heir.  He was pushed and bullied and enormous pressure was put on him as a young boy. They were also constantly comparing him to his sister.  Whether or not he had ADD they may have ruined any chance of his thriving in a scholastic environment. Albert himself was very cerebral and was a serious student and assumed he could bend and mold his son. It's a bit spooky to read. Yet, those ten short years as king are impressive.