Duch_Luver_4ever Digest #1

[sandy]

If someone is looking for signs that Charles is a bad man, they will definitely find them. Likewise if someone is looking for signs that he is a good man, they will find them. When you listen to the engagement interview in its entirety, you realize that "whatever love means" was an ironic put down to the reporter who was asking an impertinent question. Those who preferred the story of Charles the cold fish took it to mean that Charles was essentially saying he did not really love his wife. Diana's reaction here is very interesting. She cringes a bit.

I think that charles' remark was just him trying to sound clever, I don't think that Diana cringes,  but perhaps she was a bit embarrassed by what seemed a rather clumsy remark.. she was used to playing along nicely with the media... whereas Charles was uneasy with them,
and yes she was a bit vague about the early years of the marriage and when it went pear shaped. I don't believe ti was all misery even if the problems were there from early on.  And All marriages even the best have problems. I think they had some happy times when the children were babies, and when she was pregnant, but there was always tension..

I don't think Charles wanted to say he loved her. He hedged. His "clever" remark made him look very confused. It could not have been all misery since they shared a bed, obviously and had two children together.
Double post auto-merged: April 23, 2017, 09:59:22 PM

Charles and Camilla kept in touch. This is a fact. They did not have to sleep together the whole time but Charles did admit he preferred Camilla but still met up with her at the hunts and at house parties and they spoke on the phone. Charles did not "give up" Diana until he got what he wanted: the heir and spare. He had Camilla 'there for him.'   He had no business marrying Diana when he did not love her.

[amabel]

But you see Amabel, that is precisely why it is so important for some royal watchers to insist on that fiction that Charles was sleeping with Camilla from day one of that marriage. Anything other than that would show them up to be the sanctimonious intruders in that marriage who claim to know more about what happened than the people who were in the marriage. Like any marriage it had ups and downs; with the important difference that Charles gave up trying after 1986 and moved back to his old mistress. 

well its manifestly absurd to say that chas was sleeping with Cam from day 1 and I don't think that Diana ever claimed that.  But He did problaby always have a fondness for her that he coud't shake off, esp when his marriage wasn't working out.

[sandy]

It was a whole lot more than "fondness".  He went into the marriage preferring Camilla. His marriage did not work out because he did not go into it in an honest way. He'd be a darn fool to think his relationship with Camilla did not hurt his first marriage.  He did his duty and got the heir and spare which is what he wanted from Diana. He felt she would fall into line like Andrew Parker Bowles.

[amabel]

. Diana herself was no longer happy about being portrayed as a victim whose husband never loved her and cheated her from day one. It was just not true and even demeaning to her. I wish she was here to put some of her fans straight. 

well unfortuanately  that was the picture that Diana put out in Morton, that she was a helpless innocent who knew nothing bout the affair with Camilla, (whch every upper class person knew about) and who was so naïve that she didn't know anything about sex or indeed anything very much.  That she had never heard of Camilla, and only discovered there was an affair during her engagement, when of course it would have bene too late ot break it off.  and that Charles had evilly plotted with Camilla to go back to her after he had married Diana and fathered an heir or 2.  and that she had been the hapless victim of their plotting.  So having put that story out, how could she then go back and say that it hadn't been quite like that?

[sandy]

Diana was 12 years younger than Charles and would not know what the Highgrove set knew about CHarles and Camilla. She only started meeting his friends in 1980 and it was in CHarles interest to present Camilla as the safe married friend, the housewife with a husband and two small children. And she was said to have to approve Charles' girlfriends. She was more of a matronly figure. I would not say every upper class person knew. Diana did not have experience which is what Charles wanted for a wife and future mother of his heirs. Diana thought Charles loved her and after the wedding would not be seeing Camilla anymore. Unfortunately, Diana trusted Charles too much.

[Duch_Luver_4ever]

Interesting contrast in last 2 posts, as usual id say the answer lies somewhere in the middle....

[sandy]

Diana was not a masochist, if she had the power to see into the future she would have dumped Charles early on. She was dazzled by Charles and he sweet talked her. She did not grow up in Charles' circle but was about his much younger brothers ages.  Diana thought Charles loved her because he proposed to her.  The word in the media was that Camilla was the "safe" married friend who vetted Charles girlfriends. This was a well known fact back then.

[TLLK]

Interesting contrast in last 2 posts, as usual id say the answer lies somewhere in the middle....

I agree but like you I tend to see gray and not merely black and white when it comes to historic figures.

[dianab]

. Diana herself was no longer happy about being portrayed as a victim whose husband never loved her and cheated her from day one. It was just not true and even demeaning to her. I wish she was here to put some of her fans straight. 

well unfortuanately  that was the picture that Diana put out in Morton, that she was a helpless innocent who knew nothing bout the affair with Camilla, (whch every upper class person knew about) and who was so naïve that she didn't know anything about sex or indeed anything very much.  That she had never heard of Camilla, and only discovered there was an affair during her engagement, when of course it would have bene too late ot break it off.  and that Charles had evilly plotted with Camilla to go back to her after he had married Diana and fathered an heir or 2.  and that she had been the hapless victim of their plotting.  So having put that story out, how could she then go back and say that it hadn't been quite like that?

that girlfriend who jumped Charles at a party, because he was dancing with Camilla, also knew he was sleeping with Camilla when she (the girlfriend, i think sandy must know the name of the young woman) was being courted by charles?

[Trudie]

^ @dianab The woman was Anna Wallace

[dianab]

Thanks Trudie. I thought the woman was named Anna.  But wasnt sure.

[amabel]

Jumped Charles at a party?  Do you mean tried to get off with him?

[dianab]

Well known as & WHY Anna Wallace left Charles. At that party Camilla saw Anna W wouldnt to be a good 'mouse'. I highly doubt the Anna W' reaction to Charles at that party was because she knew about the nature of 'friendship' betweeten C & c

[royalanthropologist]

Thank God the thread is back :goodpost:

[amabel]

Well known as & WHY Anna Wallace left Charles. At that party Camilla saw Anna W wouldnt to be a good 'mouse'. I highly doubt the Anna W' reaction to Charles at that party was because she knew about the nature of 'friendship' betweeten C & c

what does that mean? Obviously she knew that Charles and Camilla were or had been lovers, which is why she got cross and stomped off...

[Curryong]

I thought the Anna Wallace incident occurred at the Queen Mother's eightieth birthday party held at Windsor. I read that Charles escorted Anna to this party and then, as was his wont, drifted off to dance with Camilla for most of the night. Camilla went there with Andrew PB presumably. Anna, who had a temper, became agitated, and when Charles finally tore himself away from Mrs PB and returned to her Anna hissed at him, 'Nobody does this to me. Not even you!' and sped off there and then in a borrowed car.

[amabel]

I have read, though i can't remember where, that there were 2 incidnets.  once Anna stormed off because Charles had danced a few dances with Camilla, and alos with other lady guests and that that was "proper party behaviour".. (so posslbly that is the QM's birthday party - where it would be good form for charles to mingle with most of the guests)
presumably she had made up with him afterwards because another incident occurred some time later, that he DID spend more time with  Cam than with her..and she finished their relationship.   However I believe she was still friends with him later, as I have read that at one party much later on, where Diana had been dancing a lot with some young man, charles had spent the evening talking to Anna.
But I think that Anna was someone wo was likely to remain as a girlfriend, rather than a wife...and I'm sure she was aware that Charles had been in an affair with Camilla and was still very close to her..

[royalanthropologist]

All I can say about Anna Wallace: CLEVER GIRL!!!!

The man was dithering and behaving in a very cowardly way and she was wise to give him a miss.

[sandy]

I have read, though i can't remember where, that there were 2 incidnets.  once Anna stormed off because Charles had danced a few dances with Camilla, and alos with other lady guests and that that was "proper party behaviour".. (so posslbly that is the QM's birthday party - where it would be good form for charles to mingle with most of the guests)
presumably she had made up with him afterwards because another incident occurred some time later, that he DID spend more time with  Cam than with her..and she finished their relationship.   However I believe she was still friends with him later, as I have read that at one party much later on, where Diana had been dancing a lot with some young man, charles had spent the evening talking to Anna.
But I think that Anna was someone wo was likely to remain as a girlfriend, rather than a wife...and I'm sure she was aware that Charles had been in an affair with Camilla and was still very close to her..

Anna moved on I think she had at least two husbands. Charles was said to be besotted with Anna. I think Camilla may have perceived her as a threat.

[amabel]

All I can say about Anna Wallace: CLEVER GIRL!!!!

The man was dithering and behaving in a very cowardly way and she was wise to give him a miss.

he wasn't dithering.  He was passionate about Anna for a time,b ut it was not a relationship likely to lead to marraiage.

[royalanthropologist]

Just been reading this article:
Prince Charles's hand-written letters to Nancy Reagan | Daily Mail Online

Two things strike me:

1. How the Reagans could be so discreet. I never suspected that there Charles' chums outside the formal banquets.
2. How many commentators have an unhealthy obsessive dislike for Charles that turns even the least acrimonious letters into a point of high drama. Some people need counselling to get over this saga.

[sandy]

Too bad Charles had to whine to these people. At the outset, he and Diana should have gone to an objective marriage counselor. I am not at all sure that Charles and Nancy Reagan were all that close. Nancy's husband was her life and center of her universe. I doubt she had much time to devote to Charles problems.

I see obsessive dislike for Diana in some of those comments.

I think people can and should express their opinions and not be accused of "Needing Counseling."  Not everybody is going to approve of everything Charles does or says. Charles IMO tends to dramatize and it is all about him. 

I personally think Charles should have not been such a whinger and dealt with problems instead of airing them to strangers.

Woe betide Diana if she had been the one to write those letters.

[dianab]

All I can say about Anna Wallace: CLEVER GIRL!!!!

The man was dithering and behaving in a very cowardly way and she was wise to give him a miss.

WELL SAID!
Double post auto-merged: June 04, 2017, 10:45:32 PM

I have read, though i can't remember where, that there were 2 incidnets.  once Anna stormed off because Charles had danced a few dances with Camilla, and alos with other lady guests and that that was "proper party behaviour".. (so posslbly that is the QM's birthday party - where it would be good form for charles to mingle with most of the guests)
presumably she had made up with him afterwards because another incident occurred some time later, that he DID spend more time with  Cam than with her..and she finished their relationship.   However I believe she was still friends with him later, as I have read that at one party much later on, where Diana had been dancing a lot with some young man, charles had spent the evening talking to Anna.
But I think that Anna was someone wo was likely to remain as a girlfriend, rather than a wife...and I'm sure she was aware that Charles had been in an affair with Camilla and was still very close to her..

Anna moved on I think she had at least two husbands. Charles was said to be besotted with Anna. I think Camilla may have perceived her as a threat.

IF he was besotted or 'passionate' with her, Charles would NOT have spent the night dancing with Camilla. From which i read he'd have married her if not for this 'Camilla episode'... As far as he was concerned she was marriage material.

[sandy]

Camilla dropped the act of the safe married friend when she was around Anna Wallace. With Diana, she invited her to weekends at the home she shared with her husband and small children to look "harmless."  I think she thought Diana not as clever as Anna and could pull the wool over her eyes. I think "monopolizing" Charles that night put a coffin nail in the relationship of Anna and Charles.

[TLLK]

How the Reagans could be so discreet

I believe that the Reagans could have been discreet because they understood what it was like to have the press intruding upon their personal lives. They'd been the subject of tabloid intrusion themselves. :shrug: