Diana pushed her wicked stepmother down the stairs and away from sick dad

Started by sara8150, August 11, 2017, 02:57:53 AM

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sandy

Quote from: TLLK on September 23, 2017, 04:14:09 PM
@sandy-This site is a royal discussion forum. Members have discussed the various events in the lives of deceased royals (Tudors, Romanovs, Habsburgs, Windsors etc...) and living ones (ie Denmark's Prince Henrik's behavior, remarks and dementia diagnosis.) That includes events/relationships that had closure with the death of the royal or are still ongoing. IMO it is part of what makes a site attractive to members and encourages ongoing discussion. In my experience,  I've noticed that sites that present only one point of view tend to have little participation.

Again if you don't care for the topic of discussion, you do not need to participate. :shrug:

I am entitled to participate. And my opinions should not be dismissed. Should this thread be a totally one sided thread? I think not.

Double post auto-merged: September 23, 2017, 10:10:52 PM


Quote from: TLLK on September 23, 2017, 04:57:32 AM
@sandy- Please remember that you don't have to read the thread if you don't care for the discussion. :shrug:

If you want a one sided opinion, perhaps you would want me not to participate.. But I think others points of  view should be heard or else it will be a 100 Percent Diana bashing exercise. I thought all opinions were welcomed. Please remember that this is an open thread.

Double post auto-merged: September 23, 2017, 10:14:43 PM


Quote from: royalanthropologist on September 23, 2017, 08:13:20 PM
I am glad I am not the only one that thinks it a disservice to Diana to try to make her some sort of paragon of virtue whose every foible must be defended to the last.  Part of her appeal was that she was human and shared her humanity. She was not embarrassed telling people about some of the messes in her life. Some people found that appealing about her. Had she been a miss goody two shoes, she would nowhere be as popular as she became.

@Trudie. I did not mean that she pushed several people down the stairs. I meant it was not an isolated incident of acting irrationally and impulsively then regretting later on.

And I see efforts to make Charles a paragon of virtue. On the other side, he is always excused. ANd Camilla too.

Nobody said DIana was a paragon of virtue but she was not a monster like Bette Davis in Whatever Happened to Baby Jane? Let's not go to extremes here.

Diana NEVER intended to have that tape heard. The woman died at age 36. If she knew she would be dead, she'd have certainly burned the tapes.  Anne Morrow Lindbergh wrote diaries, and some were so dark, she burned them before she died. Lauren Bacall locked up her letters in a safe and ordered her children to keep them that way. Diana was a young woman;. Everybody has a dark side and nobody is perfect.

But short of trying to posthumously trash Diana and order an investigation, I am not understanding where this thread is going.

The one person who was the one to forgive her was Raine Spencer. And she did.

Everybody has a bad side. Even Charles and Camilla.

TLLK

QuoteIf you want a one sided opinion, perhaps you would want me not to participate.. But I think others points of  view should be heard or else it will be a 100 Percent Diana bashing exercise. I thought all opinions were welcomed. Please remember that this is an open thread.
Awesome! I agree that one sided ones are not beneficial to the forum :thumbsup: Participation in threads is greatly appreciated at this forum and other sites. That's why it's important that we continue to have them even if others do not agree with our point of view.  :thumbsup:
Quote
I still don't get why this is beaten to death. What can be done now? Prosecute the dead Diana? Raine forgave her the two were close.
After reading  by your comments in which you stated  that you didn't understand the reason why this topic was still being discussed,  I and others were under the impression that you found this continued conversation topic to be personally disturbing. That's why I shared that you were not required to participate.  :)


QuoteNobody said DIana was a paragon of virtue but she was not a monster like Bette Davis in Whatever Happened to Baby Jane? Let's not go to extremes here.
No one stated that she was a monster in fact posters have gone out of their way to state that they do not view her as one,  so I'm not sure why about Bette Davis comparison. :blank:

Duch_Luver_4ever

Some  :goodpost: @TLLK and @royalanthropologist thats exactly what im referring to. If for example Raine and Diana had always been good friends, while that would have been nice, in my mind its a much more courageous and character building episode in Diana's life, and speaks to her growth and character that she was able to swallow her pride and make up with Raine that had their relationship never been tested and it been a boring Vanilla paste of mild agreement.

As much as we, or at least I, would have liked for her to never had a care,worry or tear in her life, its a great testament to her that she was able to take those situations and turn them around to benefit ppl and change the world rather than wallow in the paralysis of self pity or material excess. So I think to diminish her shortcomings is to diminish the growth she had to go through to do the wonderful things she did, and to diminish her as a person.

As for Charles and Camilla always being excused for their actions, that is patently not true, I know I pretty much always take my shots, repeatedly, at them for what they both did when warranted, but I also will give credit where its due, even if its begrudgingly  :lol:. Heck, even royalanthropogist does as well, you can see it on some of the recent comments, and throughout her time here saying where C&C did wrong in the whole courtship.

I mean here's on paper, with our respective fav royals, we should not be able to say a civil word to each other, and yet we have very frequent contact on the threads and even though we disagree on some things, we're able to have well thought out, meaningful discourse that causes each side to look at all sides in a different way.

I find it sad and ironic that usually the most heated disagreements I have come from other Diana fans.

As for the tapes not being intended to be shown, thats true, had she been alive we likely wouldnt have seen them, and the Spencers burned docs when she died, so god knows what else is out there to be exposed that will be lost to history, as im sure is true of many historical figures.

But the stairs incident is interesting in that it shows even today the difference between the UK and International press, as they tried even as late as this summer to try and deny this happened, as only the US had broadcast it up till then. Just like in the old days when the UK press would edit out Ed VII's mistresses from photographs if they were caught when he was out and about while the International press wouldnt.

But its true that Diana did have a temper, from throwing nannies clothes on the roof, to bullying kids the first year at school when Jane was a prefect, the poison pen letter to Raine, putting eggs and flour on Gilbeys car when he stood her up( it would be interesting to see who he thought would be a better date than late 70s/early 80s Diana, ill never understand that one), gluing a friends car lock when she wouldnt loan her the car, and then the stuff we all talk about in the marriage, etc..

But the thing that makes it valuable to talk about those things is that she was learning and growing from those experiences and becoming a better person. She was also capable of great love, compassion,caring, thinking of others, etc. unseen for a royal.

Its like the bad stuff was the rain (pardon the pun) needed to bring the rainbow that was her lovely side out.
"No other member of the Royal Family mattered that year, or I think for the next 17 years, it was just her." Arthur Edwards, The Sun Photographer, talking about Diana's impact.

sandy

All the Spencer children disliked Raine. Soon after his father died, Charles SPencer, got those plastic bags, stuffed Raine's things into them and put her out. Jane and Sarah would be cold to Raine and sing Raine Raine go away. It was not just Diana.

. From the biographies I read, Diana was withdrawn, the effect of her mother leaving the family. Like a post traumatic stress disorder effect.

And the story of Raine and Diana has been told endlessly for over 20 years and the tapes were out ca. 2004 and are readily seen on Youtube. So this is not exactly a "new discovery."

The strategy for Charles supporters (like Penny Junor) seem to make Diana appear like a witch and a "mad" witch at that. Giving her no redeeming qualities, Junor even criticized Diana as a mother in several books (which most of her critics have not done and have acknowledged she was a good mother to her sons, and her sons have said she was a wonderful mother). Junor has no clue but wants C and C to be "vindicated" by tearing Diana apart posthumously. Even saying things Diana did with no proof or source of how she got the information. Like tearing apart Charles' sketching materials on their honeymoon. There is no proof of this. None whatsoever. And isn't it interesting how Junor used her "sources" as Charles' friends. I can only imagine what they would say to please Charles. Diana's dead and can be freely trashed. Junor in reality did no favors to C and C since her bolstering Camilla as the savior of the monarchy was downright laughable to some.

So it is sad that the only 'defense' of what C and C did is to bash DIana. And Junor also made APB a casualty trashing him for his cheating. But giving a free pass to Charles for sleeping with his friends' wives.

I think as decades go by there will be books where both sides are presented and the researcher talks to people who are sympathetic to Charles and to people sympathetic to Diana.  And no gossipy hearsay would be allowed. I think only then will there be a fair analysis of the marriage. It may not come though in Charles' lifetime.

TLLK

@Duch_Luver_4ever -I won't quote your entire post, but I wholeheartedly agree with what you have said in it. I especially like the fact that you shared that Diana was able to eventually move past some of the more contentious times in her relationships with others and come to a more civil one. At the time of her death, she'd done so with Raine and appeared to have established  a better one with Charles for the benefit of their sons. Had she lived, perhaps she and Frances might have reconnected.

Duch_Luver_4ever

Thanks @TLLK the hopeful part of me would have liked to see her and Frances patch things up had she lived, but that was going to be a tough one.

I will say this to those that feel any criticism of Diana helps Charles and/or is bad. Besides being helpful of gaining a deeper perspective of her life, I also think it was just a case of she lived her life more emotionally and more fully in a lot of ways that most people.

For example, not many teenagers would have a friend write a poison pen letter to their step mom, but ALSO most teenagers wouldnt think to dance backwards with a wheelchair bound person to make them feel more normal, or to do errands with her car for her employer who didnt have one. You likely wouldnt have one without the other. Thats why I can look more critically at her ups and downs, its all part of the package, and on balance it was sweet wonderful person who could make ppl feel special and could make you feel special towards her, but like all of us had some rough edges. :flower:

"No other member of the Royal Family mattered that year, or I think for the next 17 years, it was just her." Arthur Edwards, The Sun Photographer, talking about Diana's impact.

sandy

I think criticism is one thing, trashing another. Junor specializes in trashing. Bradford criticized Diana but  never trashed her. And other authors as well.

Indeed Charles and Diana came together during their last year to be at appearances involving their sons.

TLLK

Quote from: Duch_Luver_4ever on September 24, 2017, 04:50:00 PM
Thanks @TLLK the hopeful part of me would have liked to see her and Frances patch things up had she lived, but that was going to be a tough one.

I will say this to those that feel any criticism of Diana helps Charles and/or is bad. Besides being helpful of gaining a deeper perspective of her life, I also think it was just a case of she lived her life more emotionally and more fully in a lot of ways that most people.

For example, not many teenagers would have a friend write a poison pen letter to their step mom, but ALSO most teenagers wouldnt think to dance backwards with a wheelchair bound person to make them feel more normal, or to do errands with her car for her employer who didnt have one. You likely wouldnt have one without the other. Thats why I can look more critically at her ups and downs, its all part of the package, and on balance it was sweet wonderful person who could make ppl feel special and could make you feel special towards her, but like all of us had some rough edges. :flower:


@Duch_Luver_4ever - :goodpost: I agree with your post and yes it might have been easier for Diana and Fergie to make up than Diana and Frances.  Also it does humanize these figures from history to know that they too were simply human beings. Even those monarchs that have been canonized by their respective churches, likely had their moments when they failed the "paragon of virtue" litmus test.

Duch_Luver_4ever

I think a lot would have depended on who she ended up with, and of course once Frances health started to decline (we dont know when the Spencers knew that her behavior wasnt just from the bottom of a bottle due to her illness).

I doubt that just about all of the historical monarchs/figures, etc. could have held up to the 24 hr news cycle that they have to deal with today. Even just the time from Ed VII to Charles you can see the rapid evolution of media scrutiny and things that were acceptable becoming un-acceptable, so imagine Henry VIII trying to dodge press heading to a stagecoach after "Boleyn-gate" or something :lol: :teehee: :lol:

Royal Lovers - Camilla, Diana and Charles Documentary Documentary 2017 - YouTube
"No other member of the Royal Family mattered that year, or I think for the next 17 years, it was just her." Arthur Edwards, The Sun Photographer, talking about Diana's impact.

Curryong

Quote from: Duch_Luver_4ever on September 24, 2017, 05:49:03 PM
I think a lot would have depended on who she ended up with, and of course once Frances health started to decline (we dont know when the Spencers knew that her behavior wasnt just from the bottom of a bottle due to her illness).

I doubt that just about all of the historical monarchs/figures, etc. could have held up to the 24 hr news cycle that they have to deal with today. Even just the time from Ed VII to Charles you can see the rapid evolution of media scrutiny and things that were acceptable becoming un-acceptable, so imagine Henry VIII trying to dodge press heading to a stagecoach after "Boleyn-gate" or something :lol: :teehee: :lol:

Royal Lovers - Camilla, Diana and Charles Documentary Documentary 2017 - YouTube

That's very funny Duch_ and very true! If the number of mistresses Edward VII had got out to the general public had got out he would have been hanged, drawn and quartered by the British public, considering how popular his wife Alexandra was. A lot of middleclass and religious people did regard him then as a very wicked man, with known gambling and infidelity, but they didn't know anything really. Plus, Edward VIII certainly wouldn't have been able to hide Wallis away for years, the press would have been surrounding her and Ernest's London flat straight after Edward began visiting. There are so many, the Prince Regent, for example, probably never have reached the throne!