The War of the Wales' discussion Part 3

[LouisFerdinand]

During 1987, rumors over marital difficulties spread as more and more of the duties of Princess Diana and Prince Charles were carried out individually.   
Do you think that if The Prince and Princess of Wales had performed more royal duties together these rumors would not have occurred?

[TLLK]

^^^Hard to say because BRF members including the happily married couples do carry out a number of solo engagements on behalf of their patronages. Whispers that all was not well with the Wales' marriage had already begun circulating. Having more joint appearances might have delayed the news a little, but the couple  had already begun their extramarital affairs.  So it was just a matter of time before the news that they were having trouble would be in the press.

[Curryong]

There were rumours that Diana and Charles were not getting on as early as 1983. A few journalists hinted at it but the majority couldn't bear the thought of the fairy tale disintegrating and so kept their mouths shut. Royal Engagements are put in place as much as a year in advance and individual patronages can't be ignored. Sooner or later the truth would have come out. Diana tried very hard to present a smiling face everywhere she went but by the later 1980s the truth was becoming blindingly obvious.

[royalanthropologist]

As I understand it, trouble started right from the honeymoon. Diana would spend hours crying and sometimes Charles would sit with her without a word being spoken. Later on after the honeymoon they went into their houses but again the rows were frequent and violent. By the time the press learnt or hinted anything, the marriage was dead or dying. In fact by the time the hints were appearing, Charles was in the process of permanently returning to Camilla.

[sandy]

Charles and Diana kept up appearances and even had photos taken of them looking happy together. Dancing together and so on. Charles never really "left" Camilla they were in touch speaking on the phone and meeting up at social events and hunts. Diana's crying or the length of time doing so is subject to speculation. Diana was sick at Balmoral due to morning sickness, hormonal changes of her pregnancy, and the bulimia. She admitted that.  Junor speaks on Charles' behalf and many of these stories came from Junor who is favorable to Charles. Barry did say that Charles would call up Camilla on the honeymoon and C and C were seen at hunts together. Diana and Charles as Diana said had "filthy rows" over Camilla. I think Charles made it clear back then that he preferred Camilla to Diana.  There was a "happy" time for them on the honeymoon when the two made the trip to the Caribbean. Photos were taken unawares and there was no crying they looked  happy. The problems started IMO when Charles more and more resented Diana's popularity and wrote whining letters to his friends who started bashing Diana to him and leaking stories. Once Charles went to them with his problems it was downhill all the way.

[royalanthropologist]

I quote @sandy

"The problems started IMO when Charles more and more resented Diana's popularity and wrote whining letters to his friends who started bashing Diana to him and leaking stories. Once Charles went to them with his problems it was downhill all the way."

So really it was not Camilla that undermined the marriage but Charles' jealousy and the leaking of stories by his friends? That is a novel idea but I do not believe it.

If we are to believe Diana's own words, the problems happened throughout the marriage including the honeymoon. They were never any "happy moments" according to Morton. Unless of course you are saying that Diana lied about that too?

[sandy]

Camilla was a "fall back" for Charles. But at the same time he had those jealousy issues of his own wife. Writing his friends that 'all she did was say yes to me.' They did not rally around and say, hey Charles work on the marriage, they started trashing the wife to score points.

Sarah Bradford wrote that that was a major turning point when Charles' friends started turning on Diana. She maintains as late as 1983 there was still a chance for the marriage.

When Diana and Charles left Balmoral and the in-laws, and they were alone in the Caribbean, Diana never reported there being "rows" there and photographs show they were getting along with plenty of PDA. There had to be happy moments or the children would not have been conceived.

[Curryong]

Oh come on, Royal! Of course people look back bitterly on the ruins of a marriage.

However, the couple weren't perpetually miserable and unhappy from the wedding reception onwards. There are photos of them at a party for example with Diana wearing false breasts and sitting on Charles's knee and both laughing their heads off. Staff can remember them laughing and racing each other up the stairs to the nurseries when Harry and Will were being put to bed.

Others can remember Charles early in the marriage patting her bottom on engagements and once, in Oz, to the delight of the crowd running off after a tree planting, with Diana laughing and thrown over his shoulder. A pregnant Diana and Charles were photographed smooching in the sea on holiday. Diana herself said they were very close during the pregnancy with Harry...There were plenty of occasions when they were happy.
Double post auto-merged: October 06, 2017, 03:22:51 PM

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[royalanthropologist]

I agree very much with your analysis @Curryong. That is why I was never convinced by the "brood mare" stuff. I wish more people realize that Morton was really the reflections of an unhappy woman who was facing the prospect of a dead marriage and listed only the bad things in it rather than a factual account of her marriage.

I am also glad that @sandy recognizes the fact that Camilla was a fallback position when the marriage was facing difficulties. Diana has never said that Charles was sleeping with her throughout the marriage. That was something that was made up and perpetuated by some people in order to pile on the drama.

This was a relationship that started hitting the rocks when each side failed to compromise with the other or understand their needs. Diana wanted Charles to break off all contact with Camilla and he said no. Charles wanted Diana to be silent about his attachment to Camilla and she said no. The other things about jealousy were incidentals that could have been overcome with compromise, understanding and of course real love.

[sandy]

Well Camilla being around gave Charles a "safety net" which was IMO  a bad thing since she gave him less incentive to work on the marriage to DIana. She was "there" for him. Charles never really was out of touch with Camilla.

I think Charles wanted the heir and spare and that was that. It is telling he wanted to second to be a girl which to me meant he did not want to try for a girl. Parents having say two children born first of the same sex will say "well let's try for the girl" or "let's try for the boy." Unless they strictly wanted two children and that was that.  With IVF today some parents can have twins one of each, like the Clooneys did and like Prince Albert did.

I still think Charles real love was himself. Considering how he tried to arrange things so he could have his cake and eat it too. A man truly in love would not even think of marrying another woman.

[LouisFerdinand]

Was there not a happy picture of Charles and Diana taken at her brother Charles' 21st birthday?

[Duch_Luver_4ever]

There was a lot of problems on the honeymoon, of couse were left to conjecture as to all the causes, but my take is she started to realize that she wasnt going to win over Charles heart like she though she was going to. That Charles envisioned going back to as much of her bachelor life as possible, and things like the dinners at balmoral with all of Charles older friends and I think she felt very isolated.

While the royals are never touchy feely at the best of times, they have several traditions and customs at Balmoral like the xmas presents being as cheap and tacky as possible, not sitting in Queen Victorias chair, etc. that she wasnt aware of and I think rather than finding them cute, it highlighted how out of place she felt. Charles could have really helped her out there giving her the lay of the land, rather than going off each morning staking deer or painting. She likely felt that Charles wanted a vacation from her as much as his role on the honeymoon. (most men would have opted for 3 months in Fiji with her than Britannia/Balmoral)

AS far as the "good times" prior to Harry's birth, I think Charles knew he had to produce kids and tried to make the best of it, and as part of "the game" he was likely going to be faithful until a male heir was born and then after that, all bets are off, and that does mesh with Diana telling her dance teacher/beautician etc of Camilla in 83/84, etc.

Without pictures, etc of course the real date will never been known as I dont see C&C coming clean on it, and theres likely a grey band from right after the wedding to 1986 depending on who you support, etc. and what you think constitutes adultery (emotional vs physical).

I do agree with @royalanthropologist that one has to look at morton through the lens of a very unhappy woman as far as her marriage was going, (ie when ppl say things like always, never, etc. its more their point of view than the actual situation) and to provide cover for the time bombs of Hewitt and Gilbey coming out with Camilla being unknown except by the media who were fearful of printing anything.

I also agree with the positions that Camilla was always a fall back both in terms of not putting the proper work in the marriage, and giving Diana the sense that someone else was "around" even if only in his heart and mind.

Also the idea that Charles truest love being himself is very accurate, even Camilla is only around in so far as he calls it "her great achievement is to love him" notice he doesnt say much about HIS achievements having anything to do with loving her, I think he does, as far as she fits into his life as a willing supplicant, but god forbid if she had any actual needs for herself, in that case I think youd see Charlie make himself scarce.

[Curryong]

Very true, Duch_. Someone who says 'Your greatest achievement is loving me' and 'All she (Diana) ever did was say Yes to me' (regarding his wife's popularity), has an ego reaching the levels of the Sun King, Louis XIV, IMO! Charles did allow himself to tolerate a wheelchair-bound Camilla a couple of times in previous years, but God forbid if she ever developed emotional problems or if she had ever become more popular than him in the public eye.

What Charles requires, wants, in a wife (and now apparently has) is a person who regularly props up his ego, constantly tells him how marvellous/wise/all-knowing he is, listens to his musings on his mentors' works, fits in with his lifestyle without making demands, fixes awkward situations, gives plenty of imaginative sex, enjoys the things he does, puts up with his workaholic routine without complaint (even when it impacts on family occasions) ...Crikey, no wonder Camilla needs a bolthole!

[royalanthropologist]

Once again @Curryong is spot on about Charles' requirements in a wife. There was no way a willful, headstrong girl of 19 was ever going to fill those requirements. Camilla may not entirely be happy with the situation but she is old enough and cynical enough to know that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

The bolthole was a particularly clever idea on her part because Charles has to effectively woo her every weekend. She too has a fallback position so he is more than happy to compromise. When he throws a tantrum, she makes herself scarce and then he pines for her. Moreover we hear Camilla speaks to APB on the phone every single day and that keeps Charles sufficiently jealous. I bet he really wants to know what they talk about but dares not ask.

Besides, I actually do think Charles loves Camilla so he will put up with much more from her than he ever tolerated with Diana. You just have to look at how many jewels he showers on her despite that she is in 70th year. With Diana he was stringy and reluctant, but with Camilla no expense is spared. Even on foreign trips, Camilla gets to acclimatize and is given all sorts of considerations that Diana never had.

And of course, Camilla is non-negotiable. Even his sons have to play ball or face estrangement. With Diana, she came down to third or fourth in his priorities. 

[Duch_Luver_4ever]

Interesting posts, Diana was wilful and headstrong, even at 19, when after their first meeting Charles assumed Diana would be over the moon to watch him do office work at BP, she said "bugger I do mind sitting there while you work" :lol: can you imagine Kate saying she wants the word "obey" taken out of her wedding vows if they hadnt ever been taken out before? To me, that right there should have told the grey suits what they were going to be in for, and thus "deserve" all the lumps they got, media wise totally cucking up the foundation of the marriage.

Even her father said shortly after the wedding, that Charles would soon learn that Diana gets what she wants, well that had mixed results. While she wanted to fit into the family and could be shy, demure and insecure, she could also draw on that Fermoy steely side, which while strong, could also be brittle as well.

As for Charles shouldnt have married her if he didnt love her, well, that all comes down to what ppls expectations of the marriage were. I suspect there was so much miscommunication, trying to hide intentions, and conceal things on both sides, that it was going to be a disaster.

Had the palace not tried to sell the fairytale aspect of it (likely to get the country out of the jam it was in politically, sort of a domestic foreign tour if you will, flying the flag for its own subjects.) then the love match angle wouldnt have played into it so much, and ppl might have entertained a more dynastic marriage.

However, the appeal of Diana with ppl would have nixed that pretty quick though, ppl wanted the best for her.

As for jewels, etc. I think RA is onto something with the fact that none of the parties was interested in the other solely based on personal merit. Although the idea of no one giving Diana a second thought if she wasnt PoW im assuming is referring to media hype, as quite a few men were interested in her (I can say personally I had no idea who she was when cupids bow struck home, she could have been the binmans daughter for all i cared).

Charles can afford another divorce financially, the duchy has done well, but I think Camilla is far too clever to go that route, shes going to take far more by being his wife than being a divorcee again. Shes going to make Charles pay for 30 plus years of having to stay in the shadows, and he seems all too willing to pay. However publicity wise it would be a disadter for a year or so if he was to divorce her as it would re-dredge up Diana, and all the talk of it being all for nothing the Camilla thing if it ended in divorce. If it were to occur right after the Queens death that would make it even worse for Charles.

I think as close to or as far as Charles can love another woman he does "love" Camilla, or at least he loves what she does for him, and that she puts up with him. In many ways being ruled out in the 70s was a blessing for Camilla in that she had a lot of expectations and "heavy lifting" dynastically wise taken off her plate. Diana had to do the "hard" work of being on display, bearing the press, the day to day of being royal, having his children, etc.

With Diana wanting, but not assured of marrying a royal, she dabbled with "regular" men a bit, and I think she saw her tremendous value to them, and likely from her friends saw how more ordinary folks get on, and that likely fed along with the cartland books, that it would be a marriage like others with the wife calling the shots.

While she had a clear idea of how to get Charles to the alter, she wasnt prepared for keeping the marriage going, kind of like an army that takes over a country but finds that running it is an entirely different matter, and isnt well suited to it with the skills that won the country.

I think she had thought how to set herself apart from the other competitors, but hadnt thought enough about the post marriage period, like the RF and the grey suits, she figured divorce was off the table, to everyones loss, as had they acted more like it was an option, both sides might have been more flexible.

Obviously, Diana fans are rightly chuffed over the whole marriage thing, esp with it not taking Charles out of running for the crown. Im not saying he shouldnt have not been able to marry Camilla, but he should have had to choose, considering he broke a solemn vow to the country, the church, in front of the RF, etc. that day in St. Pauls, so how can we believe any oath he would take at Westminster Abbey? (aside from the crown and power of running the realm that is)

I think the whole tale shows a lot of time is long and the journey uncertain, im sure you could have polled the three of them over various times and all of them would have been delighted and despondent at various times. Camilla may or may not at one time have felt bad that she couldnt provide Charles heirs, but it also took a lot of bother off her plate, and now when she does have the stress of being his royal bride, she had a lot less to worry about that Diana had to. In 1981, Diana thought she was getting the world handed to her, instead it was an apple with a worm inside, so you just never know.... :flower:

[michelle0187]

During 1987, rumors over marital difficulties spread as more and more of the duties of Princess Diana and Prince Charles were carried out individually.   
Do you think that if The Prince and Princess of Wales had performed more royal duties together these rumors would not have occurred?

In the documentary 1987- A Royal year, the royal reporters, including Andrew Morton wearing a tacky tie that Di liked, were counting the amount of times they spent apart and sensed there was strong tension between them on their ski trip. Just looks she was giving charles. The joint engagements would make it too easy for reporters to sense something off about their marriage

[Duch_Luver_4ever]

Ski Trips were notoriously tricky for them in that regard, before that doc in "Speaking Naturally" or whatever it was called, they were quizzed about the arguments on ski holidays. While Diana liked skiing, I think she preferred the sunny holidays, add to that photo calls and likely more time around Charles in closer confines than their usual weekly routine led to frostly glances.

[LouisFerdinand]

Why did not Queen Elizabeth II intervene? After all, she was the mother and mother-in-law.

[TLLK]

^^^ She did intervene after the Panorama interview when she told them to get a divorce.

IMHO @LouisFerdinand she wasn't inclined to become involved in the marital issues of  other adults unless the actions of the couples  put the monarchy in jeopardy. As we all know, those actions did impact the monarchy in a negative manner.  By the late 1990's three of her children and their spouses were headed for divorce, but they were the ones who were involved in these relationships and knew the reasons behind their failure. She was technically the person who had to oversee the welfare of the minor children involved as all six were heirs to the throne: (In order of succession: William, Harry, Beatrice, Eugenie, Peter and Zara.) However primary custody remained with the parents and not QEII.

Now decades later would she choose to intervene should the Wales/Cornwall, Wessex, or Cambridge marriages begin to falter? It's possible but then she might choose to let the adults in the relationship deal with it without her interference.

[Duch_Luver_4ever]

Well, the Queens intervening then is like the fire department coming when the last embers of the burnt house are going out. Now unless she had always planned to let Charles have a divorce and accept his mistress becoming his wife from the beginning, it was jolly reckless of her to let things go, in at least C&D's marriage (arguable Andrews and Anne's as well for reputation sake, but they wernt as vital to the succession).

Unless she knows something we dont, (probably so) she took an awful risk the government wouldnt have stepped in like they did in Edwards day. At the very least she subjected the house of Windsor to be a laughing stock during the late 80s and 90s.

As far as the idea that Charles had an inexhaustible list of suitable brides is certainly not how I remember those days, even ones like Anna, and some of the others he dated, might not have been suitable to be married to. I find it hard to believe Anna had no past, but I did like her spirit. Short of Amanda, not all of the serious ones would have made it to the alter even if they were willing to.

Also, as nice as the idea of laying all their cards out to a prospective young bride, that was never going to happen. Thats where it was up to the young girl to be educated in the ways of the world, or to be attentive to the gossip about Charles and the reasons more and more girls were turning him down, what did they know that a prospective young bride didnt????

Charles could never held up under his parents pressure and the press scrutiny if he held out for true love in a suitable (by 1970s standards) package. Frankly it wasnt going to happen, he was too old and set in his ways, and it would be a rare young girl that would have mirroring interests and be able to jump through all the other hoops. Sad to say, but it had to go down the way it did, but it didnt have to be that Diana was heading in wide eyed and idealized view of marriage, if C&C wernt going to fill her in, her family and friends should have.

I do agree that had Charles asked, Camilla likely would have said yes, but he didnt, he loved the crown, and feared his parents more than he loved Camilla, otherwise, hed have made her non-negotiable then. I dont know how much it bothers her not having Charles kids, maybe at one time it did, im sure now, its likely not a big deal. For all the heartache, thats one area Diana did carry the day, sort of, in that her legacy will live on in her sons, but that was kind of the point of them having her around, but where she got them, was they didnt expect she would have such strong ideas and mold the boys in her ideas for the future monarchy, thats her crowning glory, IMO.

[royalanthropologist]

What could the queen do? By all accounts Charles could be quite stubborn and mistrusted both his parents and Diana as well. The only person he really listened to was his grandma and maybe Camilla. The queens response of "Charles is hopeless. I don't know what you can do". Just about sums it up. She wanted the problem to go away.

Diana used to lament that the first letter she wrote to her was to request a quick divorce from her son. How such a relationship could be used as marriage counselling service is beyond me. Camilla was telling Charles that Diana was mad and that he should get away from her. That was the quality of marital counselling he was getting.

Btw about Jessica Craig, I have never bought into the fantasy of perfect marriages. There are always issues but some people are better than others at dealing with them.

[amabel]

er um why on earth should the queen be a "marriage counsellor"??  Did she want to wrok for Relate? 
her attitude was that Charles was a grown man and Diana a grown woman, and that if they didn't get along, they worked it out,for themselves.. and made the best of their marriage.  What was she supposed to do? 

[royalanthropologist]

I think Diana wanted her to do a "Give up Camilla or else" directive but the queen was wise enough to steer away from that. All she was hearing was Diana's version and beside Diana was not really that important when it came down to the succession once the heirs had been born. She could hardly take Diana's side against her own heir. The queen's attitude was that they should sort it out and not bother her. Diana became frustrated with the response and complained about it.

[amabel]

of course she was going to say "you're both grown up.  You got maried, knowing that a divorce was impossible.  Now it hasn't worked out, you should be adult enough to sort it out between yourselves...

[Duch_Luver_4ever]

Unlike some, im not suggesting the queen should have done anything because it was "the right thing to do, etc." as far as the marriage for its own sake, but that it was a matter of state. The RF and UK wanted the fairytale to continue at least on the outside.

Obviously its with a bit of hindsight, but everyone goes on about how stern and commanding the queen can be when she wants to, so I find it hard to believe that with his fear of his parents, his desire to have his mothers job, etc. that HM didnt have some levers to work with. I think it was she thought "the mouse" wouldnt chew her way out of her royal pen, so to speak. Also HM put up with PP running around and she was Queen, so I dont think she could understand Diana's need for emotional fulfillment she seeked from the marriage, and just treat it like a job.

But given how much HM feared any repeat of the abdication, or anything that looks like it, HM could have used the full wrath of the realm, and as a parent on him, had she wished to. I dont know if its her desire to stick her head in the sand, or that she knew the government would not push for Charles to be cast aside for any Camilla issues that cause her to be useless in the whole thing.

Hard to say if it was ignorance, dumb luck, or cunning ruthlessness that had the queen stand by the wayside, but they endured a 10-15 yr black eye over it in terms of the Windsors image, but I think the Queens allowing C&C to get married, is that it makes it look like the queen had it planned all along, and now the WoW looks like a minor hiccup that was all part of a multi decade plan.