Duchess of Cornwall, favorite daughter-in-law of Queen Elizabeth II

Started by FanDianaFancy, April 19, 2014, 06:18:19 PM

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Eri

Quote from: Limabeany on April 21, 2014, 03:18:22 AM
I know this is an unpopular opinion... My very personal though unpopular opinion, I know why people find it rude, but I don't find it rude and I find it disquieting that women feel insulted by people using their maiden names, which is the name of the human being, the woman who is married, regardless of where life takes her or who she marries... I understand wanting to have his last name, fine, but to feel insulted? It feels like women have been waiting for the chance to be reborn into someone else, a married woman, and no longer want to be the person they were before. It is not so much about feminism to me as much as it is about identity, the identity of a human being who is someone on her own right, not "was" because she married, but is part of a larger family, as she has been her entire life before and throughout her marriage, regardless of their desire to wipe the slate clean of who they were before and start again with a new name. Marriage, to me, is not a witness protection program, but, another part of the cycle of life, your life, which includes your parents, your childhood, your school years, Uni years and your own self, the self which has a name, legally, that cannot be taken away through divorce or death, the one that doesn't depend upon your being married... I don't see why Kate or anyone else should be offended by people calling her by her maiden name. If a woman wants to take her husband's name, that is great, but to feel it is wrong for people to use her maiden name... Kate married up, yes, that doesn't make her name, by birth, regardless of how many titles and names she has, offensive. Just my very personal humble opinion, of course...  :flower:
In this case it's her former husband's name it's not even her name ... he remarried , she remarried for the life of me I don't get why she is called his name ...

Trudie

Well Camilla was known as Parker Bowles, far longer then she was a Shand or has been a Windsor not to mention her son a Parker Bowles who constantly reminds the world he is her son and Sir's stepson.



sandy

Quote from: Limabeany on April 21, 2014, 03:18:22 AM
I know this is an unpopular opinion... My very personal though unpopular opinion, I know why people find it rude, but I don't find it rude and I find it disquieting that women feel insulted by people using their maiden names, which is the name of the human being, the woman who is married, regardless of where life takes her or who she marries... I understand wanting to have his last name, fine, but to feel insulted? It feels like women have been waiting for the chance to be reborn into someone else, a married woman, and no longer want to be the person they were before. It is not so much about feminism to me as much as it is about identity, the identity of a human being who is someone on her own right, not "was" because she married, but is part of a larger family, as she has been her entire life before and throughout her marriage, regardless of their desire to wipe the slate clean of who they were before and start again with a new name. Marriage, to me, is not a witness protection program, but, another part of the cycle of life, your life, which includes your parents, your childhood, your school years, Uni years and your own self, the self which has a name, legally, that cannot be taken away through divorce or death, the one that doesn't depend upon your being married... I don't see why Kate or anyone else should be offended by people calling her by her maiden name. If a woman wants to take her husband's name, that is great, but to feel it is wrong for people to use her maiden name... Kate married up, yes, that doesn't make her name, by birth, regardless of how many titles and names she has, offensive. Just my very personal humble opinion, of course...  :flower:

Just a thought look at Henry VIII's wives. Anne Boleyn, Catherine Parr (who was Lady Latimer after the death of her husband at the time Henry courted her), Catherine Howard and Jane Seymour were born with those names but they are more often called by their birth names than Queen Anne or Queen Jane for example.

TLLK

 Good point Sandy. I've never referred to them by any other name.

amabel

wel since most of Hen's wives had the same names, obviously they are referred to by their birth names for clarity.  They would not be so called, at the time.

Eri


Trudie

Quote from: Trudie on April 21, 2014, 11:29:40 AM
Well Camilla was known as Camilla Parker Bowles far longer then she was a Shand or has been a Windsor not to mention her son a Parker Bowles who constantly reminds the world he is her son and Sir's stepson.

Quote from: Eri on April 21, 2014, 07:24:54 PM
Again Parker Bowles is not how she is called ...

Well Wallis Simpson was not how she was called She was The Duchess of Windsor however she was still referred to as Mrs Simpson so what really is your point?. I still want to find out how she went from being as quoted by The Queen as "That wicked woman" to suddenly becoming her favorite? especially as it is always Sophie who travels with her by car.



sandy

I don't think Camilla is the Queen's favorite daughter in law. For one thing she'd never go out and broadcast who her "favorite" is. I think she tolerates Camilla and they are cordial but I doubt it is a love fest. Both Elizabeth's mother and sister could not stand Camilla and would not be shy giving Elizabeth their opinions.

TLLK

I agree that she'd never broadcast it. As for her favorite well that might never truly be known.

Eri

I think The Queen has come to like The Duchess during these ten Years why not?

amabel

I think she likes her, albeit she was probably very angry about her conduct during the marriage to Diana.  I think she's likely to blame Cam more than Charles.. and probably felt that Cam should have kept away form him, or if they had to have an affair make damn sure they were discreet and not getting picked up by phone scanners. 
But I think that over the years, she gets on pretty well with Cam and likes her, finds her congenial as a companion since she is' horsey and country. As Long as the marriage to Cam does not impact on the succession and Will and H get on OK with Cam, I think that the queen has come to feel that Cam makes Charles happy and that's good, and she fits in well with the RF's country lifestyle which is also good.

Limabeany

I don't know... The Queen doesn't strike me as a forgiving person, but more as someone who holds grudges... I think the Queen is doing what she feels needs to be done but I don't think she likes Camilla very much or will...
"You don't have to be pretty. You don't owe prettiness to anyone. Not to your boyfriend/spouse/partner, not to your co-workers, especially not to random men on the street. You don't owe it to your mother, you don't owe it to your children, you don't owe it to civilization in general. Prettiness is not a rent you pay for occupying a space marked 'female'." Diana Vreeland.

amabel

I certainly do not see the queen as a person who holds grudges.  she's a sensible, non emotional woman.  Why would she make herself miserable recalling old wrongs?

DaFluffs

Quote from: sandy on April 21, 2014, 11:09:27 PM
I don't think Camilla is the Queen's favorite daughter in law. For one thing she'd never go out and broadcast who her "favorite" is. I think she tolerates Camilla and they are cordial but I doubt it is a love fest. Both Elizabeth's mother and sister could not stand Camilla and would not be shy giving Elizabeth their opinions.

I have no evidence or data to support this but:  I can't see Princess Anne sitting quietly on the sidelines either...... even if she dated Parker Bowles previously.....



Felicia

There is no evidence either way.It does however strike me that both Camilla and Sophie are intrinsically more to the taste of the Queen than Diana would have been..temperamentally and interests wise.

Also-the Queen is above all else a pragmatist.If she is able to swallow having Martin Mcguinness at her dinner table after the murder of Mountbatten I don't think one can say she holds grudges -at least not publically.She is not her mother mother or sister both of whom I think did have a nasty vengeful streak

Further-once people get very old-as HM is-they focus on their legacy and those things which are familiar .Camilla fits the bill on both


Eri

I think she loves both Cam and Sophie and is very happy with them ...but I gotta feel sorry for Sophie for Years she was the only one and now she has two women above her that will inevitably take all the attention away from her ...

amabel

Quote from: Felicia on April 22, 2014, 03:12:40 PM
There is no evidence either way.It does however strike me that both Camilla and Sophie are intrinsically more to the taste of the Queen than Diana would have been..temperamentally and interests wise.

Also-the Queen is above all else a pragmatist.If she is able to swallow having Martin Mcguinness at her dinner table after the murder of Mountbatten I don't think one can say she holds grudges -at least not publically.She is not her mother

I agree. I don't think she's an emotional person, unlike the QM, and she us as you say pragmatic and sensible   She has lived too long I think to be foolish enough to hold grudges. and Camilla shares her interests, such as horses, country life etc and has been loyal to the RF. I think by now, she may well feel, after the dramas of the Diana yeasrs and the various things that DIana did, that  her marriage to Charles was a complete disaster and that she wishes that it had been possible back in the late 70s for Charles to have married Cam and been with a woman whom he found congenial and compatible.


sandy

Quote from: amabel on April 22, 2014, 09:49:40 AM
I think she likes her, albeit she was probably very angry about her conduct during the marriage to Diana.  I think she's likely to blame Cam more than Charles.. and probably felt that Cam should have kept away form him, or if they had to have an affair make damn sure they were discreet and not getting picked up by phone scanners. 
But I think that over the years, she gets on pretty well with Cam and likes her, finds her congenial as a companion since she is' horsey and country. As Long as the marriage to Cam does not impact on the succession and Will and H get on OK with Cam, I think that the queen has come to feel that Cam makes Charles happy and that's good, and she fits in well with the RF's country lifestyle which is also good.

The Queen tended to ostrich over the years and did not interfere though she was said to have heard from a courtier who said that there were complaints from military people about Charles having an affair with a fellow officers wife.

I think she made the best of a bad situation but I think though she is cordial to Camilla and wants to project a united family she does not care that much for Camilla on a personal basis.

I don't think the boys are that crazy about Camilla either but their father is high maintenance and they accepted her for their father's sake and the woman did not raise them.

I don't get why the be all and end all is making Charles happy. It makes him sound like a spoiled brat that doesn't think of making others happy, just himself. Camilla IMO is out for herself too so they deserve each other.

Double post auto-merged: April 22, 2014, 05:25:26 PM


Quote from: amabel on April 22, 2014, 03:50:19 PM
Quote from: Felicia on April 22, 2014, 03:12:40 PM
There is no evidence either way.It does however strike me that both Camilla and Sophie are intrinsically more to the taste of the Queen than Diana would have been..temperamentally and interests wise.

Also-the Queen is above all else a pragmatist.If she is able to swallow having Martin Mcguinness at her dinner table after the murder of Mountbatten I don't think one can say she holds grudges -at least not publically.She is not her mother

I agree. I don't think she's an emotional person, unlike the QM, and she us as you say pragmatic and sensible   She has lived too long I think to be foolish enough to hold grudges. and Camilla shares her interests, such as horses, country life etc and has been loyal to the RF. I think by now, she may well feel, after the dramas of the Diana yeasrs and the various things that DIana did, that  her marriage to Charles was a complete disaster and that she wishes that it had been possible back in the late 70s for Charles to have married Cam and been with a woman whom he found congenial and compatible.

Diana did? What about what Charles did? He trashed her and Philip via his authorized biography. Charles and Charles alone chose not to marry Camilla back in the early seventies. . If he had the be all and end all love for her he would have fought to marry her. The man could not even be bothered to tell Camilla to wait for him when he went on a navy tour of duty.  Diana went into the marriage with no baggage and Charles clinging to the mistress caused Diana to be upset and have "drama" and I surely don't blame Diana.  Camilla has not been "loyal" to the royal family since she interfered in a royal wife's marriage even usurping Diana's place as hostess as Highgrove. A loyal woman would have backed off and not trashed the wife. Camilla's predecessors were never so nervy.  Lily Langtry would not trash the wife or try to undermine her.

Double post auto-merged: April 22, 2014, 05:27:35 PM


Quote from: Eri on April 22, 2014, 03:13:07 PM
I think she loves both Cam and Sophie and is very happy with them ...but I gotta feel sorry for Sophie for Years she was the only one and now she has two women above her that will inevitably take all the attention away from her ...

By all accounts Sophie's marriage to Edward is happy and they have two healthy and happy children. What's to be bothered about? Also nobody knows how the Queen "treats" Sophie--this is only an article by a reporter.

TLLK

Quote from: amabel on April 22, 2014, 09:49:40 AM
I think she likes her, albeit she was probably very angry about her conduct during the marriage to Diana.  I think she's likely to blame Cam more than Charles.. and probably felt that Cam should have kept away form him, or if they had to have an affair make damn sure they were discreet and not getting picked up by phone scanners. 
But I think that over the years, she gets on pretty well with Cam and likes her, finds her congenial as a companion since she is' horsey and country. As Long as the marriage to Cam does not impact on the succession and Will and H get on OK with Cam, I think that the queen has come to feel that Cam makes Charles happy and that's good, and she fits in well with the RF's country lifestyle which is also good.
Excellent summary!!!

DaFluffs

 
Quote from: amabel on April 22, 2014, 03:50:19 PM

I agree. I don't think she's an emotional person, unlike the QM, and she us as you say pragmatic and sensible   She has lived too long I think to be foolish enough to hold grudges. and Camilla shares her interests, such as horses, country life etc and has been loyal to the RF. I think by now, she may well feel, after the dramas of the Diana yeasrs and the various things that DIana did, that  her marriage to Charles was a complete disaster and that she wishes that it had been possible back in the late 70s for Charles to have married Cam and been with a woman whom he found congenial and compatible.
-

  :goodpost: 

very very good post



sandy

What does the "country lifestyle" have to do with anything? Camilla does not ride anymore because of her bad back for one thing.  And I am skeptical that the Queen has grown "fond" of Camilla but she is one to show unity in the family despite what happens privately and she is cordial but I doubt it is a big lovefest between Camilla and the Queen. Again, "making Charles happy" as being the be all and end all makes him sound like a spoiled brat.  Making him happy apparently involved letting him have his cake and eat it too--have the suitable wife, the heirs and keep the mistress about to make him happy. Never mind making Diana happy or trying to be a good husband to her. The marriage was doomed because Charles felt that he should be made happy at other people's expense. Camila IMO is a selfish manipulative woman and got what she wanted. So it's come to Little Chuckie happy at last. If she made him so happy he should have not married Diana to get heirs, forced a divorce and the two could run around being happy doing country pursuits. Charles technically did not have to produce children but he was ego driven to have his own flesh and blood succeed him.  Diana had the children for him then he ditched her like a peach pit.  If this is indeed the Queen's  mindset (being oh so joyous that her son is happy at last with the woman who helped break up his first marriage,) then she richly deserves homewrecking Camilla as her daughter in law. Charles should have been given a choice being happy with Camilla or being happy on the throne. Chuck would  have chosen the throne in a heartbeat. The man could not even tell Camilla Shand to wait for him  all those years ago when he went to sea but it was OK to bed her after she married somebody else. 

DaFluffs

Hmmm... "the Queens mindset"   

In my thoughts I look to the examples that other royals set for the Queen in her growing up years and well into the 1970s.  Most British royal men (uncles, cousins, husbands of her girlfriends, etc.) had mistresses.  When I read bits of history (not just royal family history) it seemed like mistresses were common, not unexpected.  Perhaps in the era of 1900-1970s the aristocracy was still arranging marriages to fit peerage, aristocracy and money needs and less concerned about "love"?  And it was acceptable to have a mistress as long as the mistress played by the rules of discretion & silence.

Camilla didn't follow the rules of other royal mistresses.  Charles did not curb Camilla's behavior.   In terms of the Queen's mindset I suspect the Queen was confused & flummoxed as to what to do - both publicly and within the privacy of the palace walls.....  If there is an invisible wall between the Queen & Camilla I wonder if it has to do with this?




sandy

Of course, Not all British royal men had mistresses. The Queen's father and granddad did not.  And the percentage of those who have mistresses is not definitively known.

And you are right Camilla did not play by the rules. Mistresses were supposed to be respectful of the wives not try to usurp their places nor badmouth them to the royal  husbands.  The Queen IMO was horrified at Camilla and Charles behavior--she and Philip in letters that came into public domain expressed sympathy to Diana and were surprised that Charles could prefer Camilla. The situation got a lot worse and finally the Queen forced the divorce. But now she is stuck with Camilla--her son is spoiled and self centered and even lashed out at his mother via his authorized biography. He is high maintenance and rather than have tensions the Queen decided to make the best of a bad thing. I don't think she is so hung up on making Charles 'happy" just wants to avoid  listening to his whingeing and his tantrums. She and her mother did not like unpleasant situations. Her mother did indicate that she didn't want Charles marrying Camilla in her lifetime and Charles did wait.  I think the Queen tolerates Camilla but it is not a big lovefest. I think she and Will and Harry know how temperamental Charles in and preferred tolerating Camilla to watching Charles sulk and make scenes.

Trudie

Perfectly said Sandy. As for grudges She had to swallow having Martin MC Guinness at her table for the sake of relations with Ireland publicly she as Queen was probably seething at the government for organizing this state visit. That said he is not a permanent member of her family that caused so much trouble and sorrow he went back to Ireland not a royal residence with an HRH