The Tudors 1485-1603 Henry VII -Elizabeth I

Started by cinrit, November 17, 2011, 12:38:27 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

cate1949

the sweating sickness was probably a hantavirus but they may have confused sweating sickness with the high fevers (and sweating) that can accompany TB.  So it is hard to be sure of what they all died of.  But we know for certain poor Edward died of TB.

One of the reasons it may be true that Katherine's marriage to Arthur was not consummated is that he was either in the final stages of TB when they married  or he had hantavirus.


KaTerina Montague


cinrit

Arthur and Catherine were both ill at the same time, apparently with the same symptoms.  They both were described as having "a malign vapor which proceeded from the air".  Catherine recovered; Arthur did not.

Cindy
Always be yourself.  Unless you can be a unicorn.  Then always be a unicorn.

KaTerina Montague

Quote from: amabel on January 02, 2015, 12:20:47 AM
Quote from: KaTerina Montague on January 01, 2015, 06:45:32 PM
I have the book The Creation of Anne Boleyn and I love it. It is a good book and well writtrn. I like to see how thr image of Anne has changed throughout the years. I didn't like that it ended with the idea that Chapuys interpretation of her is making a comeback. I hope another swing towards the positive happens soon.
Anne was a smart woman but she had no imagination, she didn't see that what Henry did to Katharine could be done to her. She never imagined that she wouldnt have a son despite that she was steadily getting older. Her only powerful ally by the time of her marriage was Henry; she put all her eggs in one basket aND it backfired horribly. Katharine had the nobility, the common people, the church, and the Emperor.
I should say that once she had committed to the King (and I do think it wasn't easy to avoid him esp when he was offering marriage rather than an affair), there wasn't much she could do.  She probably did worry about having a son, but what could she do about it other thank keep on hoping.  She probably didn't think, any more than Henry did, that she would have to wait 6 years for a  divorce, and that her child bearing years would be wasted in waiting.. antoehr reason she was angry with Wolsey. She could have been more gentel and less aggressive and then she might have had more popular and noble support, but she was hot tempered and had a hard streak, and so found it hard perhaps to conciliate people...

Anne may not have thought about her again at the beginning but by the time she hit her 30s it should have been at least at the back of her mind. Were there many women having their first child in their 30s which Anne was by the time she married? She was too confident and didn't have a back up plan; I doubt she even thought Henry would get rid of her. Only the wives after her were able to have the knowledge that Henry's attentions were deadly. Even Katherine Parr after she saw 2 of her predecessors die, fell into forgetting that her husband was a killer.

amabel

I don't see that heney was a "killer".. per se. but he was a monarch who had a lot of power and became more dangerous as he got older. I don't quite know what "back up plan" Anne could have had.??
I think she didn't envisage being executed, but she did fear Losing Henry's favour when she seemed unable to produce a male heir.. She might have feared divorce and being sent into seclusion as K of A had been.. but of course being of lower rank than K she was in more danger. But what actually could she have done?  She had gotten pregnant pretty soon after she and Henry first had sex, and had proved she was fertile but it was a girl.  Then she Had miscarriages...But what actually could she have done, once she had trouble having a baby?  There were no doctors who could do anyting.. she may have feared that if Henry wasn't as "highly sexed" as his image had been, she might have less and less chance of getting pregnant. the only back up plan she might have had was the one which was highly dangerous, truying ot get pregnant by someone else and pass it off as the Kings..
Other than that there was very lilte she could do.  She could have been a bit solfter and gentler bu that probably was vey difficulft for her..

KaTerina Montague

#180
I view Henry as killer especially a wife killer.
By the time Anne started having problems having a son it was too late to start thinking about having supporters to help her. She should not hAve alienated those around her who could have helped her and kept her safe. She was never going to be popular with the people, but the people at court could possibly have been swayed to her side if she had been softer. The fact that she could not do this is proably why she couldn't be a good Queen. She didn't know how to play the role or to play politics with those around her.
I say Anne did not have imagination not that she didn't have spirit or.intrlligence. How Henry treated Katharine, Mary, Wolsey, and even Thomas More could have at least.given her some hint on how he can turn on people close to him.
It's sad that she believed in Henry's love fully and that it was enough to survive as his Queen. Maybe no woman thought more than love was necessary until Anne. But the followING wives had more to stand on. Jane had the backing of Catholics at court and supporters of Mary, AoC was a foreign princess, Katherine Parr had The Seymour Bros and Thomas Cranmer. Catherine Howard didn't really hAve a good team in her corner seeing as how it was lead by the Duke of Norfolk who'd abandon his own butt if it caused trouble with the King.

TLLK

Does anyone one know what Henry's supposed medical issues were? I've heard syphilis, Type 1 or 2 diabetes, gout, ulcers etc...Any thoughts Tudor fans?

Macrobug

GNU Terry Pratchett

Curryong

Quote from: TLLK on January 03, 2015, 03:19:39 AM
Does anyone one know what Henry's supposed medical issues were? I've heard syphilis, Type 1 or 2 diabetes, gout, ulcers etc...Any thoughts Tudor fans?

There is a very interesting documentary on YouTube called 'Inside the body of Henry VIII'. I do think the jousting injury that injured his leg and became ulcerated caused his obesity problems.

TLLK

Thank you Macrobug and Curryong. My only response can be :o :no: :blink:

Eri

I don't see Anne as very smart just a nasty witch who thought that as long as she kept Henry happy in the bedroom she would OK ... typical mistress psychology she never got into a Queen's mindset it might be because she got to be one ONLY after THE REAL ONE died ...

amabel

#186
Quote from: Eri on January 03, 2015, 09:08:48 AM
I don't see Anne as very smart just a nasty witch who thought that as long as she kept Henry happy in the bedroom she would OK ... typical mistress psychology she never got into a Queen's mindset it might be because she got to be one ONLY after THE REAL ONE died ...
She thought that she'd keep Henry happyin the bedroom??  YOu dotn think that she realisd she had to produce a son?

Double post auto-merged: January 03, 2015, 09:27:23 AM


Quote from: KaTerina Montague on January 03, 2015, 01:37:33 AM
I view Henry as killer especially a wife killer.
By the time Anne started having problems having a son it was too late to start thinking about having supporters to help her. She should not have alienated those around her who could have helped her and kept her safe. Thomas More could have at least.given her some hint on how he can turn on people close to him.
It's sad that she believed in Henry's love fully and that it was enough to survive as his Queen. Maybe no woman thought more than love was necessary until Anne. But the followING wives had more to stand on.
I am sure she was aware of how vulnerable she was, which was why when Henry flirted with other women she got nervous and angry and flared up at him..when she would have been better to turn a blind eye...
but she didn't have the Patience or skill to cultivate alliances in the way that a really smart politician would have done. and in the end, smart politicians "went down" if they failed Henry...
People at court would stand by her as Long as she was successful, no longer.  Even her own family apart from George deserted her... because once the king had turned on her and she had no son to keep her safe, she was doomed...
I don't really see what she could have done.  She gambled on being queen, on Henry's love holding out long enough in spite of the waiting they had to do, and he DID make hr queen.  But she was still something of a political embarrassment in that she was a barrier to getting on well with the Emperor and she was seen as a Protestant.. and as such was not liked by Catholics... and that couldn't really be helped.  So her next move to make sure she was safe was for her to bear a son.  And she could not do anyting about that.  and Henry Might have just divorced her but given that he had divorced Katherine and gone the route of saying that he wasn't truly married to K because of the marriage to Arthur, he would look ridiculous if he said the same thing about Anne.. "I wasn't married to her because of my affair with her sister" or "because she had  a pre contract with Henry Percy".. So with its being difficult ot make a good case for divorce, the best thing to do was to get rid of her completely

Double post auto-merged: January 03, 2015, 01:04:23 PM


Quote from: KaTerina Montague on January 03, 2015, 01:37:33 AM
I view Henry as killer especially a wife killer.
He dd have 2 wives executed but in both cases, it was justifiable.. in that they were both accused of adultery..  Some previous queens who had committed adultery were sent into confinement, but Anne B was a political figure and the mother of his daughter, so as such she was a dangerous enemy.. so he probably felt he couldn't leave her alive.. and K Howard's adultery was so humiliating for him that I think most people would have said that he was justified in having her executed as well....

KaTerina Montague

One execution was possibly jusjustified and that was Catherine Howards.I believe she slept with Culpepper but there are still those who disput the charges. Annes charges were a lie to just get rid of a wife he hated. He threatened Jane Seymour with Anne's fate and tried to kill Katherine Parr. Only wife who could be safe from Henry seems to only be the foreign ones. I need to verify this but i think the only other ruler who killed their wives was Ivan IV?

amabel

I'm sure there were a couple of French kings... who had their wives killed..
As for Anne, while obviously the charges were false, I think that in the context she was accused of adultery because having so recently (and with such difficulty) gotten rid of Katherine via the annulment route, Henry didn't want to be seen doing the same thing with his next wife. It would look stupid.
Anne wasn't all that popular but she was a tough customer and she Had a child to fight for, so I think that Henry was afraid that if he left her alive, she would be there to be   a figurehead on Elizabeth's behalf...So form that point of view, he had to get rid of her very thoroughly.  If she had just been accused of one lover, Henry would look stupid, like a cuckold, but if she was accused of having several, including her brother , she would look like a vicious and evil :censored: and he'd be justified getting rid of her...(and given Anne's ramlbing talk in the tower she DID probably furnish them with ammunition against her.. She wasn't sleeping with any of these men, but she was flirting foolishly....

TLLK

Cinrit-Knowing that Anne Boleyn is your favorite royal who would be another Tudor era royal that you find interesting?

cinrit

Thanks, TLLK.   This lady is Tudor era, but not Tudor ..... Mary, Queen of Scots.  A tragic figure, sometimes of her own making.

Cindy
Always be yourself.  Unless you can be a unicorn.  Then always be a unicorn.

KaTerina Montague

I'm not going to quote the whole post, but Annes flirting was a other factor that made her a bad candidate for a Queen . She had to be above suspicion even if she wasn't married to a lunatic. I will never see what Henry did to Anne was justified bUT man was she a liability. No son, a reformer in a country divided, she was pro France and even if she wasn't she could never be embraced by the Spanish because of the KAO situation. The majority of thr coubtey didn't like her, courtiers didn't like her, his daughter hated her...it really must have seemed like the past 10yr was all for nothing.
Another question, how much of a figurhead she coukd have been. She wasn't a foreign Princess and 80% of England didn't like her. If Jane was wife #3 and she still gave birth to Edward I don't see how anne could be much of a threat. How do you see that happening?

amabel

Quote from: KaTerina Montague on January 04, 2015, 10:01:00 PM
I'm not going to quote the whole post, but Annes flirting was a other factor that made her a bad candidate for a Queen . She had to be above suspicion even if she wasn't married to a lunatic. I will never see what Henry did to Anne was justified bUT man was she a liability. No son, a reformer in a country divided, she was pro France and even if she wasn't she could never be embraced by the Spanish because of the KAO situation. The majority of thr coubtey didn't like her, courtiers didn't like her, his daughter hated her...it really must have seemed like the past 10yr was all for nothing.
Another question, how much of a figurhead she coukd have been. She wasn't a foreign Princess and 80% of England didn't like her. If Jane was wife #3 and she still gave birth to Edward I don't see how anne could be much of a threat. How do you see that happening?
Henry wasn't a lunatic, albeit he became more suspicious and power hungry and angry as he grew older...I agree that her flirty nature was a fault, but Henry knew she was like that, when he married her.  She had probably attracted him initially by being flrirtatous in a way that attracted men without her having to go to bed with them...
But I think he executed her for 2 reasons.  One was that she HAD been his wife, and crowned queen and as such, she might not have many supporters but it was possible that she would still be seen as his rightful wife by some, such as the Protestant faction.. even if divorced.  She had his daughter who had been recognised as Legitimate and his heir... If Jane didn't have a Son, or had a son and he died suddenly - and this was soon after his fall from the horse which had scared him... Elizabeth and Elis's mother would be one faction, trying to take the throne, and Marys' supporters would be another factor to worry about... 
and the other was that he had had violent feelings for Anne, and wanted to get rid of her completely.. he porblaby did not want to think of her alive and well even if living in seclusion... he had had too much emotion about her for so long

Double post auto-merged: January 05, 2015, 07:31:06 AM


Quote from: cinrit on January 04, 2015, 07:47:40 PM
^^ And that's exactly why I've stopped posting in this thread, Amabel.  I would just start sounding like a broken record. :ugh:

Cindy
Thank Cindy!

snokitty

Henry just liked to play the romance game and once the game was over for him he wanted to move onto another woman.

Jane had already entered the picture when Henry decided to get rid of Anne. Jane was the new romance but he couldn't allow Anne to exist because of politics and all that he had done to get her.

Had Jane lived she would have been replaced soon enough. Not through marriage because of the Son but she would have been replaced. There were already rumors that he was looking around before she died.
"Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the privilege to do so, too"      Voltaire

I can see humor in most things & I would rather laugh than cry.    Snokitty


cinrit

QuoteTop 10 Facts About Elizabeth I

On January 15, 1559, Elizabeth I was crowned Queen of England in Westminster Abbey.

1. The Dictionary of National Biography reports that Queen Elizabeth had black teeth from eating too much sugar and took a bath once a month.

2. It also says that "she swore, she spat upon a courtier's coat when it did not please her taste, she beat her gentlewomen soundly, she kissed whom she pleased".

3. The personal motto on her coat of arms was "Semper Eadem" (always the same).

4. The date of Elizabeth's coronation was chosen as auspicious by the astrologer John Dee.

5. Elizabeth I wore thick white makeup to cover up scars left from a bout of smallpox.

More: Top 10 facts about Elizabeth I | Top 10 Facts | Life & Style | Daily Express

Cindy
Always be yourself.  Unless you can be a unicorn.  Then always be a unicorn.

snokitty

History Rewind: A Tudor Wedding
Quote
Anne spent the early years of her life as a lay in waiting to Archduchess Margaret and Queen Claude of France. She would make her first appearance at court in 1522.

Anne was to marry the Earl of Ormonde but that did not work out as planned. Henry Percy tried to obtain her hand in marriage but his efforts thwarted by Anne's father and the interfering Cardinal Wolsey.

Mary, Anne's older sister, was one of the many in the every changing list of Henry VIII's mistresses. Anne was not remotely interested in Henry after witnessing the courtship tactics with her sister and rebuffed his advances.

In the spring of 1526 Henry was overcome with lust and beseeching Anne to become his mistress. The passion he had for Anne is quite clear in the love letters he composed. Today, 17 of those letters are in the Vatican Library. In one letter, dated January 1528, Henry writes: "henceforth my heart will be dedicated to you alone."

Anne knew Henry was desperate both is his longing for her as well as having a male heir. As he set forth to have his marriage annulled, which was not an easy task thanks to The Queen and her allies in Rome, he began to shower Anne with gifts and treat her as if she were indeed his new queen.
"Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the privilege to do so, too"      Voltaire

I can see humor in most things & I would rather laugh than cry.    Snokitty


x-Goody2Shoes-x

Hope I'm alright reigniting this thread! Just been reading through all the chats about Anne and Henry, etc, and was wondering if anyone has been on the website The Anne Boleyn Files? Full of all sorts of interesting Tudor facts and tales, not all strictly about Anne Boleyn, either. And all evidence based, so very interesting!  :nod: It was one of the pages on that site that made me change my mind over the whole Jane Rochford giving evidence against Anne and George Boleyn saga...
"But as the years went on, I realised that all I really want to be, all told, is a human. Just a productive, honest, courteously treated human. One of 'The Guys'. But with REALLY amazing hair."

TLLK

I was going to suggest that you seek out this thread but I'm glad that you found it. The Tudors will still a favorite with royal watchers!

KaTerina Montague

#198
Quote from: amabel on January 11, 2015, 10:28:04 AM
Quote from: cinrit on January 04, 2015, 08:01:20 PM
Cindy
Oh I can't stand Mary Stuart.  I find it really hard to be fair to her. I remember from childhood days, novels by Jean Plaidy about Cath De Medici and QUeen Margot... anyone interested in them

Double post auto-merged: January 11, 2015, 10:35:59 AM




I can't stand Mary either, she is the poster child for the group who says women shouldn't be monarchs. Which is odd seeing as how she grew up around Catherine DE Medici  and her own mother ran Scotland. Neither nature nor nurture could help her.

As for Jane Rochford, I have also been changing my view on her, some things I have come across suggest the evidence she gave wasn't really evidence she just answered a question.

Curryong

Quote from: snokitty on July 18, 2015, 12:03:22 PM
What Did Elizabeth I Achieve? | Made From History

QuoteIt was called the Golden Age – a time when England grew in wealth, power and culture. What's even more remarkable is that this all happened with a woman at the helm.

History sees Elizabeth I as being one of our most successful and celebrated monarchs, but is this fair? How many of her achievements were down to her rule and how much is just good PR spin? Here are some key things that changed during the time of Elizabeth.

^^I certainly think that the Renaissance in drama and poetry for example, could be put down partially to her patronage of the arts. She gave a sense of stability to England IMO, with a long reign. This sense of national confidence assisted in defeating the Armada, though Elizabeth certainly wasn't in charge of the British ships on that occasion!