Fox hunting

Started by Elizabeth, July 30, 2006, 08:49:23 PM

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Jenee

LOL, I am not sure M, but you never know!! :lol:

(I betchya people in Louisiana do ;))
"It does not do to dwell on dreams, and forget to live" -Dumbledore

Cassidy


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hippie_cyndi

Quote from: Jenee on August 03, 2006, 03:11:16 PM
What?!  Why on earth do you think that?! It isn't like we came down from space and invaded Earth!! We have a right to be here, just like everything else!

We also have a right to feed ourselves, and if that means having to kill foxes, either to eat (:shrug:) or to stop them from destroying another food source, then that is our RIGHT.

:blink: :lmao:

anyway, what i mean....we are mammals...but we are pretty selfish one....most of the natural habitat...are completely disappearing...we are expanding our homes/building/cutting down trees...to create ugly golf course...trying to eliminate the habitat...that makes these animals survive....even us....we destroying our world...which forces some of these animals...to seek food...from our farms...migrate if they can...&...mostly die...yada...yada

we are not the ones...who kill...just 2 feed ourselves...unless you are massai....aboriginal...or other groups...that respect their own nature...we are mostly killing for fun...or...for profit :shrug:

so, instead of looking @ them as some kind of intrudor...recognise...we are the ones...intruding on their homes....by confiscating lands...eliminating their means of survival....building our version of homes.....if you want 2 kill fox...2 minimize their #s in an environmental way...go ahead...but using them...2 justify...men/women...who consider hunting....cornering...&...killing them...in the name of 'sport'...is...useless...&...vicious....not that you are saying it :hiya:
Thanx Crystalrayn :flowery:

Elizabeth

Quote from: hippie_cyndi on August 03, 2006, 09:37:31 PM
:blink: :lmao:

anyway, what i mean....we are mammals...but we are pretty selfish one....most of the natural habitat...are completely disappearing...we are expanding our homes/building/cutting down trees...to create ugly golf course...trying to eliminate the habitat...that makes these animals survive....even us....we destroying our world...which forces some of these animals...to seek food...from our farms...migrate if they can...&...mostly die...yada...yada

we are not the ones...who kill...just 2 feed ourselves...unless you are massai....aboriginal...or other groups...that respect their own nature...we are mostly killing for fun...or...for profit :shrug:

so, instead of looking @ them as some kind of intruder...recognize...we are the ones...intruding on their homes....by confiscating lands...eliminating their means of survival....building our version of homes.....if you want 2 kill fox...2 minimize their #s in an environmental way...go ahead...but using them...2 justify...men/women...who consider hunting....cornering...&...killing them...in the name of 'sport'...is...useless...&...vicious....not that you are saying it :hiya:

You certainly have a point and I do somehow agree with you.
But I cannot help it, I constantly have to think about Darwin while reading your post. 'Survival of the fittest'. Probably, if not mankind but another species were in charge of the earth they maybe would not behave otherwise.  :shrug: Maybe if foxes would rule the world they would also kill other living creatures??
'This may not be the best times but it is the time we do live in' (Schopenhauer)
'let freedom ring' (M.L. King)

M

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hippie_cyndi

 :happytears:

ps. Elizabeth...you could be rite...who knows...if they were as 'smart' as us...they may also do the dumpest things :laugh:
Thanx Crystalrayn :flowery:

Firefly

People aren't all bad though. A lot has been done to preserve natural areas and to bring back species from the brink of extinction. A lot of animal species have been saved because of efforts people have made to preserve them. Believe it or not, but in the U.S., a lot of natural areas and animals have been preserved BY hunters and fishermen. Without hunting and fishing dollars, many areas would not be in the beautiful states they are in now. Lakes, forest, prairies, marshland and such... are often times flourishing because of the people who do hunt. These people usually have a very deep appreciation and understanding of nature and the reality of it.

My father, 2 brothers and husband are all hunters. They hunt deer, pheasant and turkeys mostly. In the case of deer, the natural balance has been disrupted. Most deer now live in areas where there are no natural predators. They overpopulate areas and have trouble foraging for food. Disease is passed more rapidly and the health of the deer is negatively affected.Hunters are needed to maintain the health of the herd and keep it at managable numbers.

Not all people are selfish... our forests are bigger today then they were 100 years ago. Though its not perfect, lakes and air quality have improved much since the industrial age started. Animals close to extinction or threatened are making a comeback in many areas. (Grizzlies, wolves (although minnesota- where I'm from, has always had a large population of wolves) bald eagles, elephants, pelicans, buffalo, alligators, crocodiles,coyotes(where I live) many types of whales are flourishing....etc... Yes, there are still those that are extremely threatened- like tigers and the threat many australian animals face because of non-native animals wreaking havoc in an environment they don't belong.

Plenty of animals also flourish in urban areas-- such as deer, raccoons, skunks and such. They live quite easily in large cities and may even populate an area so much they become nusiances. So yes, While I do agree people can really mess things up-- they can also fix things and have. Like I said before-- many of the positive changes made have been because of people who hunt and fish. They are not out to destroy nature and all the animals-- but are very keen on preserving it and generally have a much better understanding about how to do it and how it all works then someone who just has this idealized image of people and animals all living in perfect harmony.

As to fox hunting... I do have to admit I don't really understand it. It really doesn't seem very sporting to me and even seems a bit cruel-- though the riders sure do look spiffy in their uniforms!


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hippie_cyndi

i agree...i think there's no such thing as living 'in harmony' with nature....there's always tension b/w the hunter...&...hunted....whether its b/w animals...or... humans...what we can learn alot from aboriginal plp...&...some of the primitive tribes around the world...is that living with nature...is more about 'co-existance' where humans need 2 learn their own limitation...&...how much the earth can really give us....as my dad said about the enviro....most resources..whether its what we eat....drink....or use....for man-made things like transportation...are 'non-renewable resources,' where if they go...nothing can replace them....we should still hunt...fish...or whatever...but understand....nature can only sustain our overdoing for so long...where lots of plp only think of...right now...instead of the long term...next gen....&...so on :mellow:

sorry if i'm coming across as enviro freak...or what plp call...tree huggers :laugh: but...i think whatever progress we make...is somehow short change...with new admin...new gov'...new policy...to profit private corps...who's bottom line is almighty $$$...for the short term...not long term benefit :shrug:
Thanx Crystalrayn :flowery:

Firefly

Good points! :) :wavey:

I think we can learn a lot from aboriginal people and "primitive" tribes as well. (But I must say, as much as I enjoy "getting back to nature" I have no desire to give up my modern  comforts...heating, airconditioning, microwaves, computers....etc.... :P)

It is important to be good stewards of the earth and environment. This planet is home, and we don't have anywhere else to go yet! I don't entirely agree that most of what we use is non-renewable. Food is a renewable source through farming and ranching--- even fish are being farmed in many areas for food, and lakes are re-stocked from fisheries. Trees are even being farmed now--those who make a profit from lumber, do look at the long term, as if all the trees are gone-- theres no profit for them. Fast growing poplar trees are often used in commercial tree farming.

Hunting on the other hand is regulated. People can't just take as many deer as they want, for example, they have to buy a specific doe or buck license. If the deer population is up, they sell more and may extend the season. If its down, they sell less and may limit the season. As it is-- where I am from, most hunters only hunt one of 2 weekend. Bow hunters may hunt for longer. There is great sensitivity towards how many deer may be taken.

Water can be a concern-- without it, the rest don't matter. People should be more aware of water wastage-- though we aren't in a crisis or anything. (especially here in Minnesota where in some places, you can hardly go out the door without tripping into a lake.)

I don't think your an enviro-freak hippie-cyndi-- you raise some valid concerns. I just want to make clear that most hunters are concerned about the environment as well-- and sometimes even more then most people. They usually take a pro-active stance about protecting and manageing it, where so many other people just pay lip service. (I'm not saying thats you-- so don't get me wrong! :flowers:)

I'm concerned about many issues too-- I just try to keep a balanced outlook and not get too parnoid. A lot of enviro groups I think, tend to exaggerate things into major crisis' in order to receive funding dollars or to influence people towards their vision of how things should be. There are people who would like to erode and completely stop anything they see as exploitive or cruel to animals such as fishing, farming, hunting, rodeos and profit of any kind, such as milk, eggs, butter and such. I know some of this is extreme-- but it always starts small and then expands. (Ask the smokers about that one) and of course its always a worthy cause. I do believe that animals should be treated humanely-- I have a huge problem with factory farms and believe those animals are many times not humanely treated at all.

I'm concerned about human waste- both biological, and garbage. Yes, there is much to be aware of-- but not to the point some people take it.

Good points all and a great topic of discussion---- though it may be a bit off-topic, it been thoroughly enjoyed! :D
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Firefly

Double post---- we really need an edit button for our posts- or else I need to start reading mine a bit more carefully before posting! Horrible, horrible grammar and spelling!
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losarboles

I was upset when the fox hunting was banned. I worked at the House of Commons for a bit and I knew the people who 'broke' in the the Parl. in England. IT is an age old sport and it should have not been banned.
Anyone up for chicken tonight? Lovely!

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Elizabeth

So has anyone ever been hunting on this board? :shrug:
If yes, I would be very interested in a first hand report of how it worked and whether it is really as bloody as people say. :hmm:

By the way, Otis was very ambitious to stop the ban but wasn't successful. But he is still huntign isn't he? What leagal actions could be tanken against him??  :mellow:
'This may not be the best times but it is the time we do live in' (Schopenhauer)
'let freedom ring' (M.L. King)

Cassidy

Everyone on this board hunts wombats regularly  :angel:

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Elizabeth

 :lmao: That was a good one cassi
'This may not be the best times but it is the time we do live in' (Schopenhauer)
'let freedom ring' (M.L. King)

buffym

Banning fox hunting should be the equivalent to banning hunting.

I think everything has it's season, there should be time sit put aside for fox hunting in the UK like in America. I'm a vegetarian and I live in the South, my great uncle lives in the Northern South and he has a fox hunt once a year, and it is great fun, well it was great fun. Until last year I thought my family didn't kill the foxes, but this summer my oldest brother let it slip out that my family has two foxes- the party would split up and half would go with me ( the side that didn't kill the fox) and the other half would go with my uncle and my brothers (they killed the fox).

Fox hunts are great fun and it's tradition, you are able to spend time with family and friends and business associate, in a relaxed  atmosphere. Everyone looks so nice, I love it, I ride Hunt and Side Saddle, and I get to ride side saddle and I look ridiculously good, but staying on topic.

It's tradition like a turkey during the holidays, I eat tofukey (tofu turkey) while the rest of my family eat a dead animal, but I don't think the government should ban meat, each person must come to their own enlightenment, and before anyone mentions eating is different, humans can survive without meat and now there are wonderful meatlike food available.

dizzylizzy13

That's a hard question.
As for the justification of hunting in terms of population control, lots of species either died out OR overpopulated long before people were around to interfere or intervene one way or another.
Aerosol cans didn't cause the Ice Age, so I'd imagine Mother Nature has her own funny way of taking care of things eventually.

The same people who hunt the fox and terrify it before it dies might have also driven to the meet sitting on leather upholstery in their cars. Cows, according to Temple Grandin, DO feel immense fear before they're slaughtered. What's the difference? What if the hunters ate chicken fetuses and bacon for breakfast? Should the government put and end to that too? After all, it probably terrified the baby chickens mother.

I know a few people who won't eat pig because "pigs are intelligent" but will happily eat turkey. That is supreme arrogance imo. Who gets the final say on who's smart and viable and who isn't then?

Personally, I wouldn't find hunting or any other blood sport fun but I don't think it's my right to pass judgement as I am a deeply imperfect being myself. I've known other vegetarians who wouldn't hurt an animal but have no problem beating their kids. I think things like this are best left up for the individual to wrestle with in their own conscience.JMO.






Wombat

Quote from: cassidydanielle on August 27, 2006, 03:33:53 PM
Everyone on this board hunts wombats regularly  :angel:
Now..just to get Harry to hunt me :unsure:

traciebelle

Am I understanding this right???....the fox doen't die in the hunt.... :hmm:

Why should it be outlawed if the fox doesn't die  :unsure:......is it just because the fox is scared?  :blink:

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Wombat

The process of the dogs killing the fox is outlawed....as is the killing the fox..I think ...That popstar from the 80's had a son who was charged after he was seen hitting a couple of foxes to kill them.   :shrug: eh....I can't remember what his name is......Perry ...Ferry..that's it's Ferry..Someone Ferry :blink:

Gems


Firefly

Quote from: buffym on October 02, 2006, 11:56:04 PM
, each person must come to their own enlightenment, and before anyone mentions eating is different, humans can survive without meat and now there are wonderful meatlike food available.

Survive yes-- but thrive? Not necessarily. A diet that works for one person may not work for another. Some people who try to adopt a vegetarian diet experience serious deficiencies and may suffer serious physical problems as well. A vegetarian diet that works very well for one person, may cause serious health risks for another. The version of vegetarian diet can have an effect as well-- not all vegetarians are the same-- some will still eat fish-- while others think the occasional chicken is ok-- and some will consume some animals products like butter, milk and eggs-- while others won't eat anything from an animal. Some (vegans) won't use any products that are related to animals.

You also can face deficiency problems when forcing developing children to become vegetarian as well. Protein-- specifically ANIMAL l protein-- is very important in brain function and developement and denying children that may be detrimental to their brains development. Notice I said may-- there are no absolutes here. What works for one person- will not work for another. (Depending on what you believe about human development-- scientists believe that it was when humans began consuming more animal protein foods that their brains began to develop more in a more complex way and what allowing people to make so many advances in such a short period of time)

Even if every person in the world became a vegetarian (not happening!)-- animals would still be slaughtered to feed our pets. It is the highest form of cruelty to force a carnivourous animal- such as dogs and especially cats-- to go against what is in their nature. They are meant to eat meat, and should eat meat. People need a lot of protein as well- and while it is possible to get protein elsewhere, it can be difficult to get in what is needed on a vegetarian diet-- especially for men whos protein needs are much higher then womens.

I respect that some people choose to be vegetarian-- and thats perfectly fine-- but I don't like it when a vegetarian has an "i'm enlightened and you're not" superior attitude. I'm not saying thats what you feel! :flowers: In fact, I don't think thats what you meant at all-- but when you mentioned enlightenment, thats what it made me think of. While you may not hold that attitude-- there are plenty that do.( My favorite is when someone rails and hollers about people eating meat and in the meantime, they are wearing leather shoes or a leather jacket!)

Ok- just had to weigh in on the vegitarian issue. A bit off topic-- but it does tie in. :P
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dizzylizzy13

Oh, wow, Firefly, excellent post and very good points.
What is good for one is not necessarily good for another.
Agree with you about children not eating meat -- it does seem they need protein. Have known too many vegatarian young ones personally with anemia and learning difficulties. Don't know the statistics, though.

I have one daughter who loves meat and another who doesn't like it so much so I supplement her diet with Fish Oil and that has seemed to help her concentration in school.

Also, I think our nutritional needs change over the course of a lifetime.

I tend to prefer the taste of vegan dishes now but loved the taste of meet 'til my teens.

Do  believe  that adopting a holier than thou attitude is wrong and think tolerance wins the day.


Gems

Quote from: losarboles on August 05, 2006, 08:20:34 PM
I was upset when the fox hunting was banned. I worked at the House of Commons for a bit and I knew the people who 'broke' in the the Parl. in England. IT is an age old sport and it should have not been banned.

How is riping a living thing up while it's alive a sport? It's sick, esp. when ppl take their children with them.  :notamused:  :hissyfit: :hissyfit: :hissyfit:

Firefly

Good post right back at you dizzylizzy! :thumbsup:

I like how you deal with your children-- you work with them on their diets. The fish oil is a great idea!

I'm a meat eater-- but I love plenty of vegetarian dishes. I have several vegetarian cook books-- some of the recipes are just so flavorful and creative. I even like tofu on occasion. Some of the meat substitutes are pretty good too. The chicken one tastes very good-- however-- a meatless burger (or hotdog) NEVER tastes as good to me a a big old patty of ground beef! Yum.

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buffym

"How is riping a living thing up while it's alive a sport? It's sick, esp. when ppl take their children with them.

Have you ever been to a seafood restarant or a Japanese restarant where you picked the fish or lobster you got to eat? It is just like that. Fox hunting was unfairly banned because it is a form of entertainment like going to a greyhound park or horse racing. What happens to greyhounds or horses - anyone uses glue? Fox hunting is like hunting if hunting wasn't banned than why should a derivative of hunting be banned. Furthermore, in the UK there is a continuation of other sports where animals are killed like Falconry. People use Owls or Falcons to hunt smaller birds and rabbits and that can be as brutal as fox hunting.