The Tudors 1485-1603 Henry VII -Elizabeth I

Started by cinrit, November 17, 2011, 12:38:27 PM

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amabel

Its hard to get very clear facts about Anne's trial and the part played by Jane Rochford.  it is possible that she didn't like Anne and only supported her a bit because she was her sister in law.  or possible she had no feelings for her one way or the other, or that she clearly  supported Mary and Katherine... But I think that she must have said SOMETHING to her questioners that looked bad and made things worse for Anne.  She cracked up before she died, and she also was extremely foolish in her conduct as K Howard's Lady in waiting so she may no have been a very sensible or stable person.. and she may have said things about Anne, to imply a relationship between her and George.   Of course it is possible that she did just answer questions and they twisted her wrods to make it seem bad.. as happened iwht Anne herself.  her wild talk in the tower certainly made her appear foolish and a bit crazy (hardly surprising as she was in such danger), but it made her look foolishly flirtatious at best..

Eri

She was a woman with low morals who thought she could play with the big shoots and lost ... sorry but I can't feel sorry for Ann after how she was with Katherine and Mary and being a mistress for Years who got pregnant before the marriage karma is a powerful thing ... also she wasn't very bright if you ask me ... she only had Henry and that is a shaky ground to be in and she forged no friendships in fact a Courtier said Jane was like waking up from a bad dream ...

LouisFerdinand

King Philip II of Spain sent his envoy, Ambassador de Feria, to begin marriage negotiations with Queen Elizabeth I within days of her accession.   
She reminded Philip that the Pope would never allow him to marry her unless she became a Catholic.


Curryong

^ I don't believe Elizabeth had the faintest intention of marrying anyone (let alone a Roman Catholic.) Robert Dudley perhaps, if his wife had died quietly in bed of a recognised illness. Even then there would probably have been rumours of poison, I suppose.

LouisFerdinand

King Philip II of Spain was determined that Princess Elizabeth of England marry Emmanuel Philibert, Duke of Savoy.  :windsor:   
The plan had the benefit that if she did inherit the throne, Philip's cousin, Emmanuel Philibert would rule as Elizabeth's husband and King of England.


amabel

Quote from: Curryong on September 04, 2015, 12:58:26 AM
^ I don't believe Elizabeth had the faintest intention of marrying anyone (let alone a Roman Catholic.) Robert Dudley perhaps, if his wife had died quietly in bed of a recognised illness. Even then there would probably have been rumours of poison, I suppose.
I think that she must have considered marriage, to provide heirs, but I think that on balance she felt that the disadvantages of marriage such as sharing her status, Britain being dominated by a foreign country, or a subject being elevated and causing jealousy, among her courtiers, outweighted the advantages. (mostly having a settled heir to inherit)

LouisFerdinand

#206
One of Anne Boleyn's closest confidantes was her brother George, with whom she spent many hours debating Martin Luther's new theological ideas. George Boleyn was an ardent reformer.   
The Boleyn children were encouraged to question the theology of the Roman Catholic Church by their father Thomas.


amabel

I would doubt that Thomas Boleyn encouraged them in discussing what were heretical views.  George was interested in religious reform and so was Anne, but I think it was a generational thing. and of course since Anne was finding that the Pope was not likely to annul Henry's marriage, she was likely to become interested in challenging the Papist viewpoint.

Curryong

^ I think Elizabeth I chose red for her wigs in order to emphasise the resemblance to her ginger haired father (who might have actually been more of a strawberry blonde.) Apparently she used to delight in people in the crowds calling her 'Old Harry's daughter'. If she had become a brunette or blonde it just wouldn't have been the same.

LouisFerdinand

Queen Elizabeth allowed negotiations for a possible marriage with Charles, Archduke of Austria, to continue.     
In June 1567, Thomas Radclyffe was sent to Emperor Maximilian II's court with the order of the Garter for the Emperor Maximilian II, along with a portrait for his brother, Archduke Charles.


amabel

yes she allowed numerous courtships, and enjoyed the "marriage game", but I think after a certain time she Had no intention of going through with anything...

LouisFerdinand

Another of Elizabeth's suitors was Adolf, Duke of Holstein-Gottorp. Adolf was a brother of King Christian III of Denmark.     
Among the Queen's marriage candidates, the Duke actually visited England.       
Adolf was Protestant and wealthy.


LouisFerdinand

Queen Elizabeth, as Princess Elizabeth, received an education that made her fluent in Greek, Latin, French, and Italian.     
Her Greek and Latin tutor, Roger Aschan, liked her beautiful handwriting and musical skills.


LouisFerdinand

In autumn 1532 King Henry VIII went over to France to meet with Francis I, accompanied by a vast retinue.     
Henry had brought Anne Boleyn with him on this state visit, not Catherine of Aragon.         
As a result, neither Francis I's wife, Queen Eleonore, nor his sister, Marguerite, attended.


PaulaB

Quote from: Eri on July 30, 2015, 05:08:18 PM
She was a woman with low morals who thought she could play with the big shoots and lost ... sorry but I can't feel sorry for Ann after how she was with Katherine and Mary and being a mistress for Years who got pregnant before the marriage karma is a powerful thing ... also she wasn't very bright if you ask me ... she only had Henry and that is a shaky ground to be in and she forged no friendships in fact a Courtier said Jane was like waking up from a bad dream ...

It's not so much morals she didn't have a choice.  In these times if your daughter caught the eyes of the King or pope the family would push them on the Royal and hope for a pregnancy to give the family power.

LouisFerdinand

Queen Elizabeth I oversaw England's attempt at poverty relief. A gradual accumulation of rulings like mandatory taxation towards this end culminated with the 1601 Elizabethan Poor Law.


Curryong

Well, the Elizabethan Poor Law was at least a bit more humane than the 1830's one which replaced it. Very few people were displaced from their homes and separated from their spouses and children in Tudor England.


amabel

Quote from: PaulaB on January 05, 2016, 03:52:07 PM
Quote from: Eri on July 30, 2015, 05:08:18 PM
She was a woman with low morals who thought she could play with the big shoots and lost ... sorry but I can't feel sorry for Ann after how she was with Katherine and Mary and being a mistress for Years who got pregnant before the marriage karma is a powerful thing ... also she wasn't very bright if you ask me ... she only had Henry and that is a shaky ground to be in and she forged no friendships in fact a Courtier said Jane was like waking up from a bad dream ...

It's not so much morals she didn't have a choice.  In these times if your daughter caught the eyes of the King or pope the family would push them on the Royal and hope for a pregnancy to give the family power.
She did have a choice..and she chose to try and win the King to marry her, rather than become his mistress.  Henry's Mistresses didn't' do that well, out of their affairs, so while of course a court family would not mind their daughter catching the Kings eye, they probably would not do as well out of a royal affair as a family a the French court where the concept of a royal mistress being very powerful was well known.

amabel

there's a programme on one of the History Channels about Anne last ngith, about her downfall which appears to have Suzy Lipscombe, Hilary Mantel, Philippa Gregory and some historians, discussing it. I haven't watched it yet...

Curryong

^ Yes, I do think that Elizabeth grew up associating love and marriage with death. It wasn't just her mother. Jane Seymour died in childbirth, Katherine Howard was executed, the stepmother she was closest to, Katherine Parr, escaped going to the Tower by the skin of her teeth. As well, even Thomas Seymour, Katherine Parr's last husband who flirted with Elizabeth, ended up on the executioner's block..

I believe Elizabeth inherited a cautious streak from her paternal grandfather, Henry VII. She would probably have married Robert Dudley if he hadn't already had a wife. However, as she got older and more entrenched in power on her own account, Elizabeth realised the complications of a foreign match and the even worse complexities that would come from marrying a subject

amabel

I think that this is largely modern psychology being imposed on a 16th C woman.  Elizabeth wasn't the only person to see women dying in childbirth or the only royal who lost people because of their political postion, since being related to the King was a dangerous thing in many ways.
but her big problem wast that "if she married a subject, she was degrading herself by Tudor standards and she was risking jealousy among her nobles and if she married a foreign Prince, she was subjecting England, which was becoming Increasingly patriotic and nationalistic, to a foreign overlord

Curryong

Royal wives dying in childbirth was one thing. However, there weren't too many rulers in Europe who were both tyrannical and married six times, let alone any that had sent two of their wives to the execution block! Fellow monarchs were horrified by his behaviour, a foreign princess he liked joked that she would have married him if she had had two necks! Yes, Henry was not an exception otherwise (in executing subjects) but Elizabeth grew up in the atmosphere of that court, even if she was proud of being King Hal's daughter.

LouisFerdinand

Childbirth was dangerous for women in the 16th century. Elizabeth was aware that there would be much speculation as to whom she might choose to wed.


LouisFerdinand

When Queen Anne miscarried in January 1536, King Francis I of France was told the story.   
Eustace Chapuys reported the news to Holy Roman Emperor Charles V that Anne was not really pregnant at all.   
She and her sister Mary had invented the story to keep King Henry VIII believing Anne could give him the son he wanted.