The War Of The Wales Years & Behaviour Of All Those Involved

Started by TLLK, October 06, 2014, 03:40:46 PM

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Curryong

Quote from: amabel on October 31, 2014, 06:32:29 AM
Why do you say that?  She had an affair with Hewitt while married to Charles.  Did anyting bad happen to her?? If she had stayed within her marriage, she and Charles  would now be  a middle aged couple watching their son getting married.  I hardly think if she had stayed married to Charles, that she would have died in a car accident in Paris... an accident which happened largely because she had trusted herself to the messy security system of a foolish man like Dodi.

So if Diana, (who, let me emphasise, I do not let off the hook for her mistakes) had been satisfied with an open marriage like Camilla Parker Bowles's, everything would have been fine and dandy would it?






cate1949

wow - although I guess if everyone was okay with all that - but still - wow - as if Diana just needed to accept her husband's infidelities and get on with her own clandestine affairs and they all could lie to the public and put on a show. That would require I think that the titles and being Queen was what mattered most to you not a happy companionable marriage and honesty.  Obviously - some do it and for less than a crown but still....

I do agree thought hat being with Dodi was a questionable decision on her part as was the whole media circus that she was participating in for the days prior to the accident.  But that was not the inevitable result of divorcing Charles and trying to seek a more loving relationship.

Canuck

I agree with cate -- I think the divorce was not what threatened Diana's safety, it was the refusal to use protection officers and the reliance on Dodi to protect her instead.  She could have lived a safe and happy life after the divorce, and I think all parties were better off with Charles and Diana throwing in the towel on a marriage that had never really worked.

sandy

It's difficult to have any sort of marriage with a third party around, one who had a lot to lose had the C and D marriage succeeded--she'd have lost all the perks and not been in control any more.


Quote from: amabel on October 31, 2014, 06:32:29 AM
Why do you say that?  She had an affair with Hewitt while married to Charles.  Did anyting bad happen to her?? If she had stayed within her marriage, she and Charles  would now be  a middle aged couple watching their son getting married.  I hardly think if she had stayed married to Charles, that she would have died in a car accident in Paris... an accident which happened largely because she had trusted herself to the messy security system of a foolish man like Dodi.

If Charles had dropped Camilla, she and Charles would have been a middle aged couple. Charles put her down publicly and could not hide his contempt even in public.

How come Charles is not blamed for not dropping Camilla?

Double post auto-merged: October 31, 2014, 11:47:35 AM


Quote from: amabel on October 30, 2014, 05:36:13 PM
They were 3 people trapped in a messy situation.  I don't really blame anyone greatly for what They did, per se, but if Cam is going to get attacked all the time, when she did much the same as Diana, I can't see why....And Diana was the one who made the big fuss about her husband being "stolen by Cam" so why did she go and do the same to other women?
If Di had had an affair or 2, kept it quiet and let Charles and Cam get on with their love affair, and managed to keep up a civilised relationship with her husband, she'd probably still be alive today...

Camilla IMO had ambitions and would not have been satisfied  being the Mistress. that's how she got where she is today.  So it as "OK" for the woman to have to put up with her husband's affairs with a married woman and put up and shut up. It seems with this sort of thinking we've returned to a time when women were just chattel to a man.

Charles when he went back to the mistress was more and more emotionally abusive to Diana even in public. And a woman should put up with that because of a selfish man? Give me a break.


sandy

Diana found out after the wedding that Camilla was not going away even after Charles took the wedding vows. How come Camilla is always left out as a factor by some? Diana was sick during the honeymoon. Charles and just about everybody else knew the woman did not hunt or liked it. I never saw Diana wielding a shotgun and picking up dead birds the way her daughter in law did during her courtship by William. I have not seen Kate picking up dead birds since she got the Ring. If you pick at Diana, why not slam Kate for "fakery" too. The biggest fraud was Charles who later admitted that he preferred the mistress at the time he married Diana. Call that honesty?


Quote from: amabel on October 30, 2014, 05:00:37 PM
and Diana was bulimic, unprepared for life and immature

Eating disorders can be controlled and don't make the person who has them "awful". Charles wanted a broodmare.

Trudie

I agree with your above post Sandy. Camilla's ambitions became more obvious as Princess Anne became the first royal to divorce and remarry. Camilla was seen more and more with Charles I believe tipping off the press when she and Charles were pictured leaving Highgrove for a picnic and on a painting holiday in Italy.



Trudie

Quote from: amabel on October 31, 2014, 06:21:46 AM
He had to get married, he had to marry a virgin and he thoguth Di was suitable..  I could  say if I wanted to be hyper critical of Diana, that she pretended to like the things he liked and then abruptly gave up the pretense.. that she married into the RF, without any intention of learning how to behave and that she then had affairs herself but chose to make a fuss about Charles having an affair and by talking so publicly about her failed marriage almost destroyed the monarchy.  But I dotn think that was the entire truth. I think that both of them were foolish and fooled thtemslves into the marriage and when it failed, they both found other lovers.

amabel you IMO are full of excuses for Charles he had to get married, he had to find a suitable virgin, the age gap well here is a newsflash for you. Charles grew up knowing the requirements he should have married in his twenties so an age gap would not have been so apparent. Charles in his twenties was a self absorbed self entitled fool who listened to Mountbatten and his outdated Victorian ideas about marriage and courtship and preferred his married mistresses like his great uncle. Diana it was known she didn't ride or like to hunt during her courtship Charles overlooked that because he needed her to become the bride who fit all the requirements. Diana said she was in love with Charles remember the engagement interview? Yes Diana stopped all pretenses as you put it about country life but Camilla was practically living in her back yard. Diana did have an affair and did kick up a fuss about Charles but again Charles brought a mistress into his marriage I believe Diana realized that having affairs wasn't what she wanted out of life.



Izabella

Man. He sounded like such a S.O.B. imo. :orchid:

QuoteHe had to get married, he had to marry a virgin
What is he a scarecrow? Forgot his brain and let people dictate his life. Christ! At least Edward/David had balls and married Wallis.  :orchid:

TLLK

As the originator of this thread I have to say that I'm glad that people are taking advantage of it! :)

TLLK

And happy to see that people are making use of this thread as well. :)

TLLK

Glad to see people making use of this thread along with the Charles and Camilla ones.

amabel

Quote from: Canuck on October 31, 2014, 11:05:30 AM
I agree with cate -- I think the divorce was not what threatened Diana's safety, it was the refusal to use protection officers and the reliance on Dodi to protect her instead.  She could have lived a safe and happy life after the divorce, and I think all parties were better off with Charles and Diana throwing in the towel on a marriage that had never really worked.
Possibly but I don't know if she was that Happy in her freedom.  I think she was having trouble finding another man, or a fulfilling role..  Charles probably got more out of the divorce than she did.. He was unpopular at the time but his popularity rose again and he was free to Marry Cam.  and he's still POW.  Diana lost her title, she lost a lot of her role, she lost the "cloak of protection" that the RF membership trrew over her..She los the approval of the RF and the upper classes...
and I don't think she was having much luck finding  a new man.  Yes of course she could have retained her Protection officers, but I think that she had gotten rid if them partly to show that she was independent  of the RF.  So that rather threw her inot depending on Dodis' security system - and we know the results of that.

amabel

Quote from: Izabella on October 31, 2014, 12:44:51 PM
Man. He sounded like such a S.O.B. imo. :orchid:

QuoteHe had to get married, he had to marry a virgin
What is he a scarecrow? Forgot his brain and let people dictate his life. Christ! At least Edward/David had balls and married Wallis.  :orchid:
He had to marry someone with no previous relationships.  He needed permission from the Queen to marry and at the time, she wold not have approved of anyone with a past. And I can't see that The DOW's marriage to Wallis was a very happy one.

Trudie

amabel in my above reply IMO you seem to make excuses for him. First of all there is such a thing as the line of succession he didn't have to marry and what if tests had proved that Charles was unable to father any children? Please respond to my post #111 I would love to hear excuses for that. I don't believe Charles loved her the way she loved him. Charles was good a deceiving Diana as she never had a boyfriend before and no experience. I believe a lot of the affection he showed in public was just that for public consumption as soon as Harry was born 3 years after the wedding he was done and all pretenses were gone.



sandy

Quote from: amabel on October 31, 2014, 04:51:54 PM
Quote from: Izabella on October 31, 2014, 12:44:51 PM
Man. He sounded like such a S.O.B. imo. :orchid:

QuoteHe had to get married, he had to marry a virgin
What is he a scarecrow? Forgot his brain and let people dictate his life. Christ! At least Edward/David had balls and married Wallis.  :orchid:
He had to marry someone with no previous relationships.  He needed permission from the Queen to marry and at the time, she wold not have approved of anyone with a past. And I can't see that The DOW's marriage to Wallis was a very happy one.

The DOW and Wallis' marriage lasted until the day he died. There was no divorce. They hit a rough patch in the 50s but recovered from it. He was absolutely devoted to her until the day he died and she was a lost soul after he was no longer around.

Charles did not "Have to " marry anybody.  There is a line of succession to the next in line is ready to take over just in case. The monarchy would not have died if Charles did not reproduce. The Duke of Windsor had the decency not to be so self centered as his great nephew marrying someone that he knew he did not love just to get his heirs. He was besotted with Freda Dudley Ward and admitted he did not want to marry the suitable girl because he knew he would not be faithful. And he gave up the throne for Wallis Simpson. If Charles had a choice I think he would have chosen the throne instead of Camilla Parker Bowles.

Trudie

Well this thread is about Camilla and her behavior not Diana and Dodi there is a thread on the Diana board. Camilla was despicable for her actions including ignoring the fact that she had children who would be affected by her affair as well as Charles ignoring the fact that he had children. Fact is I am not excusing Diana for her affair but, Diana was looking for love, affection and attention from her husband although Hewitt turned out to be a cad he did give her what her husband didn't and fact is Diana did offer reconciliation with Charles even wanting another child she was totally rebuffed. Camilla manipulated the situation to her advantage one can be sure if Camilla wasn't carrying on with the POW Andrew would have probably have divorced her sooner.



sandy

Quote from: amabel on October 31, 2014, 04:50:16 PM
Quote from: Canuck on October 31, 2014, 11:05:30 AM
I agree with cate -- I think the divorce was not what threatened Diana's safety, it was the refusal to use protection officers and the reliance on Dodi to protect her instead.  She could have lived a safe and happy life after the divorce, and I think all parties were better off with Charles and Diana throwing in the towel on a marriage that had never really worked.
Possibly but I don't know if she was that Happy in her freedom.  I think she was having trouble finding another man, or a fulfilling role..  Charles probably got more out of the divorce than she did.. He was unpopular at the time but his popularity rose again and he was free to Marry Cam.  and he's still POW.  Diana lost her title, she lost a lot of her role, she lost the "cloak of protection" that the RF membership trrew over her..She los the approval of the RF and the upper classes...
and I don't think she was having much luck finding  a new man.  Yes of course she could have retained her Protection officers, but I think that she had gotten rid if them partly to show that she was independent  of the RF.  So that rather threw her inot depending on Dodis' security system - and we know the results of that.

Diana died at age 36. How can such judgments about her "finding a new man" be made.

Charles popularity did not exactly rise. Even today. Not everyone likes him to put it mildly.

If Charles POW title was in jeopardy in marrying Camilla, no way IMO would he have given up his place in the line of succession for Camilla. He had his cake and ate it too.

Trudie

Diana was still popular with the public and the press it had nothing to do with Charles. Diana was forging a new life for herself and in doing so held the auction of her dresses not only to forge ahead but to help those charities close to her heart. The public and press applauded her for that and her work on the landmines further cemented her popularity as a humanitarian. It was Whitehall and the Aristocratic Lords she was not popular with all whom branded her a loose cannon because of those efforts.



TLLK

In 1993 Charles hired Alexandra (Tiggy) Shan Legge-Bourke to act as nanny to his sons. Her education included Heathfield school where she earned four O levels and Institut Alpin Vinemanette where the late PoW had been a student as well. She later studied at St. Nicholas Montessori in London and then founded her own nursery school, Mrs. Tiggywinkle's.
She was reportedly fond of fly fishing and long walks with her charges. William and Harry were said to be quite close to her and William opted to invite her as her guest to Eton's 4th of June celebrations in 1993 instead of his parents. Legge-Bourke was requested to come and stay with the boys upon the death of their mother in 1997 to help them to cope. She reportedly did not get along with both Diana and Camila. She came under an inquiry mounted by St. James staff when she permitted both princes to abseil down a 50 ft. dam with neither helmets or safety lines. :eyes: Reportedly only the princes' loyalty saved her job.

She married Charles Pettifer in 1999 and has two sons Fred and Tom. Harry is reportedly Godfather to Fred with William reportedly Godfather for Tom. Tom acted at a pageboy at William's wedding in 2011. She now owns a bed and breakfast.

Curryong

I agree that some politicians were criticising Diana for her stance on landmines. The memory fades (old age creeping on!) however I do seem to remember a sharper tone among British journalists in the last year or two of Diana's life.

It seems to have dated from the photo that appeared of Diana in full makeup and operating cap and mask. It was reported that she visited patients in hospital sometimes at night. I don't know whether the Press knew about how serious it was with Hasnet Khan but I do recall a rather jeering tone about 'Diana, the Angel of Mercy' which hadn't been there before.

I also remember a female journalist being quite critical of what she described as Diana's 'antics' while on holiday that last summer, though I'm sorry, I can't give any sources.

Curryong

Yes, Tiggy was quite a character, just what the boys needed really, down to earth and cheerful! I don't think safety was her first concern, though! Apparently someone saw her once driving the landrover on one of the royal estates. She was smoking furiously, and the thirteen year old Harry was hanging out of the window with a rifle, taking pot-shots at rabbits.

Apparently both Diana and Camilla had suspicions that Tiggy had designs on Charles and that he was fonder of her than he should be. Camilla once referred to her, in Tiggy's hearing, as 'the hired help'. Diana of course went further; the notorious 'sorry about the baby' remark, which she later had to rescind. I think Tiggy probably had a rather schoolgirlish crush on Charles.

TLLK

Tiggy did have her own views on fun and adventure didn't she? :lol: Interesting how both women viewed her as a threat. The "baby" remark was not one of Diana's better moments.  :no:

PaulaB

Quote from: Izabella on October 31, 2014, 12:44:51 PM
Man. He sounded like such a S.O.B. imo. :orchid:

QuoteHe had to get married, he had to marry a virgin
What is he a scarecrow? Forgot his brain and let people dictate his life. Christ! At least Edward/David had balls and married Wallis.  :orchid:

Was it his  ball that made him a traitor to his country, a man who liked and visited  Hitler even after the news of concentration camps started coming out
The Duke of Windsor was the king who never came home | Royal | News | Daily Express
When his father George V died in January 1936 Edward started meddling in government policy.

He took to calling the German ambassador directly - a clear breach of constitutional protocol.

When Hitler made it clear he meant to send his forces back into the demilitarised Rhineland, the British government expressed opposition and Edward should have stepped back.

Instead he threatened to abdicate if Hitler's advance was stopped, even phoning the German ambassador to tell him he had done so.

In that context the crisis over the King's insistence on marrying Mrs Simpson came as a godsend.

We now know that Edward attempted to go over the heads of his ministers and appeal directly to the people of Britain and the Empire to allow him to remain on the throne and marry Wallis.
Baldwin refused permission for the speech, saying it would be a breach of constitutional principle.

He also exaggerated the scale of popular opposition to Mrs Simpson in order to force the King's hand.

Once off the throne the Duke of Windsor still posed a problem. A recently released FBI file showed that at a party in Vienna in July 1937 - the month he married Mrs Simpson - the Duke told an Italian diplomat that the Americans had cracked Italy's intelligence codes.

Four months later he and the Duchess paid a high-profile visit to Germany where the Nazi regime fawned on Edward.

Propaganda chief Joseph Goebbels wrote: "It's a shame he is no longer King. With him we would have entered into an alliance."

When war broke out he was made a major-general in France but he continued to communicate with the enemy.

In January 1940 the German minister in The Hague wrote that he had established a direct line of contact to the Duke.

From him the Germans learned that their plans for the invasion of France had fallen into Allied hands.

This intelligence allowed Hitler to change his plans. France duly fell.
Six months later the German ambassador in Lisbon sent a message to Berlin saying: "The Duke believes with certainty that continued heavy bombing would make England ready for peace."

Thus the former King was urging the bombardment of his own people.

Prime Minister Winston Churchill understood the danger he posed and was desperate to get Edward back to Britain, at one stage threatening him with court martial if he refused.

In the end he kept him out of harm's way by making him governor of the Bahamas - a humiliating posting which both the Duke and Duchess detested.

From there, the Duke sent a message to President Roosevelt saying that if the US leader sued for peace with Hitler, he would immediately issue a statement of support. Luckily it never happened.

After the war the Windsors accepted an invitation from France to settle tax-free in Paris. Diana Mosley, wife of the British fascist leader Sir Oswald, was a frequent visitor.

Other guests included Maria Callas, Marlene Dietrich, Cecil Beaton and Elizabeth Taylor and Richard Burton.

Although the Duke had dropped his hopes of returning to live in Britain the couple did pay occasional visits.

Edward attended his brother George VI's funeral in 1952, and the Duke and Duchess visited London in 1965 when they met the Queen and attended the funeral of Edward's sister the Princess Royal.

The last royal ceremony the Duke attended was the funeral of his sister-in-law Princess Marina in 1968.
He died in Paris in 1972 and his body was returned to Britain where he was given a full royal funeral.

The Duchess died 14 years later and was buried alongside him in the Royal Burial Ground at Frogmore, Windsor.

They are best remembered now as star-crossed lovers who fell victim of snobbery and prejudice and gave up the privileges of monarchy to be together. There's some truth in that.

But it's only a small part of the story of the Nazi-sympathising monarch who compromised Britain's war effort at a time of national peril and whose treachery it has suited everyone to write out of history.

amabel

Quote from: Curryong on November 01, 2014, 02:14:55 AM
Yes, Tiggy was quite a character, just what the boys needed really, down to earth and cheerful! I don't think safety was her first concern, though! Apparently someone saw her once driving the landrover on one of the royal estates. She was smoking furiously, and the thirteen year old Harry was hanging out of the window with a rifle, taking pot-shots at rabbits.

Apparently both Diana and Camilla had suspicions that Tiggy had designs on Charles and that he was fonder of her than he should be. Camilla once referred to her, in Tiggy's hearing, as 'the hired help'. Diana of course went further; the notorious 'sorry about the baby' remark, which she later had to rescind. I think Tiggy probably had a rather schoolgirlish crush on Charles.
I find ti hard to imagine that Cam would use an Americanism. however while rude, it is hardly anyting like accusing her of having an abortion as Di did

amabel

Quote from: Curryong on November 01, 2014, 01:53:28 AM
I agree that some politicians were criticising Diana for her stance on landmines. The memory fades (old age creeping on!) however I do seem to remember a sharper tone among British journalists in the last year or two of Diana's life.

It seems to have dated from the photo that appeared of Diana in full makeup and operating cap and mask. It was reported that she visited patients in hospital sometimes at night. I don't know whether the Press knew about how serious it was with Hasnet Khan but I do recall a rather jeering tone about 'Diana, the Angel of Mercy' which hadn't been there before.

I
Many female journalists didn't like Diana. but yes you are quite right in that many many more papers were cool or hostile to her in the last few years.  that's why, As I've pointed out many times, there were hostile stories about her in the papers that had to be hastily pulled when she died so suddenly. The press were a bit tired I think of her manipulations, they were perhaps bored iwht "adoring Diana" for so long, and I think that the mood of the public had changed, that people were fed up with the Wales story, fed up with Diana's "in and out of the limelight" stances, and cooler towards her because of the emerging stories that while she had been complaining bitterly about Cam's intruding on her marriage, she too was flirting with married men, and intruding on THER marriages. And she did seem to behave oddly at times then, I remember that there was a story that she had cellulite and when she next went out to go to the gym, she was seen creeping down some steps as if trying to avoid her legs being photographed..(She ocudl have just worsn trousers?)  and there were the stories of visiting the sick in hospitals which some said was a cover for her romance with Hasnnat Khan.. but to some people, evene if genuine, it seemed a  bit odd and morbid..