The War Of The Wales Years & Behaviour Of All Those Involved

[PaulaB]

Yes, Tiggy was quite a character, just what the boys needed really, down to earth and cheerful! I don't think safety was her first concern, though! Apparently someone saw her once driving the landrover on one of the royal estates. She was smoking furiously, and the thirteen year old Harry was hanging out of the window with a rifle, taking pot-shots at rabbits.

Apparently both Diana and Camilla had suspicions that Tiggy had designs on Charles and that he was fonder of her than he should be. Camilla once referred to her, in Tiggy's hearing, as 'the hired help'. Diana of course went further; the notorious 'sorry about the baby' remark, which she later had to rescind. I think Tiggy probably had a rather schoolgirlish crush on Charles.

I find ti hard to imagine that Cam would use an Americanism. however while rude, it is hardly anyting like accusing her of having an abortion as Di did

She has been accused of reporting that Catherine is sterile in the Globe an article that is being used to justify saying George and baby two are surrogate babies.

[Trudie]

Yes, Tiggy was quite a character, just what the boys needed really, down to earth and cheerful! I don't think safety was her first concern, though! Apparently someone saw her once driving the landrover on one of the royal estates. She was smoking furiously, and the thirteen year old Harry was hanging out of the window with a rifle, taking pot-shots at rabbits.

Apparently both Diana and Camilla had suspicions that Tiggy had designs on Charles and that he was fonder of her than he should be. Camilla once referred to her, in Tiggy's hearing, as 'the hired help'. Diana of course went further; the notorious 'sorry about the baby' remark, which she later had to rescind. I think Tiggy probably had a rather schoolgirlish crush on Charles.

I find ti hard to imagine that Cam would use an Americanism. however while rude, it is hardly anyting like accusing her of having an abortion as Di did

Why is it so hard to imagine that Cam would use an Americanism? You know amabel they do show American TV shows and movies in England or now that you live in England American phrases are alien to you.

[Curryong]

Well, sorry, people who believe anything that is in trash like the Globe and then weave their own fantasies from it are beyond help. Surrogate babies for Kate and a cast of dozens needed to maintain the lie! Very realistic and believable I'm sure!

[TLLK]

Did she? I don't recall that.  I think that she did put it out via Morton and her journalist friends that he was a bad father, that the children were of less importance to him than his work his private life etc with the impliciaiton that she was a much better mother than he was as a father.  Possibly she backtracked a bit, because I think she was smart enough to realise that too much continued Charles bashing by her side, might have the effect of making the public fed up with the issue and making them begin to feel that she was always harping on her wrongs and spiteful.  I cant' help feeling that she was more polite to Charles in the last few months because she was beginning to become aware that her public weren't quite as adoring as before and neither were the press.. so it looked better if she was more pleasant to C and did not bash him all the time. and perhaps she realised  that it was hurting the children as well

I believe over time that she realized that her parenting style differed from Charles, but that he did love them deeply and was a good father to them. If their relationship became more cordial then I believe it would have been observed by the boys and that could have been reassuring to them.

[sandy]

Man. He sounded like such a S.O.B. imo. :orchid:

He had to get married, he had to marry a virgin

What is he a scarecrow? Forgot his brain and let people dictate his life. Christ! At least Edward/David had balls and married Wallis.  :orchid:

Was it his  ball that made him a traitor to his country, a man who liked and visited  Hitler even after the news of concentration camps started coming out
The Duke of Windsor was the king who never came home | Royal | News | Daily Express
When his father George V died in January 1936 Edward started meddling in government policy.

He took to calling the German ambassador directly - a clear breach of constitutional protocol.

When Hitler made it clear he meant to send his forces back into the demilitarised Rhineland, the British government expressed opposition and Edward should have stepped back.

Instead he threatened to abdicate if Hitler's advance was stopped, even phoning the German ambassador to tell him he had done so.

In that context the crisis over the King's insistence on marrying Mrs Simpson came as a godsend.

We now know that Edward attempted to go over the heads of his ministers and appeal directly to the people of Britain and the Empire to allow him to remain on the throne and marry Wallis.
Baldwin refused permission for the speech, saying it would be a breach of constitutional principle.

He also exaggerated the scale of popular opposition to Mrs Simpson in order to force the King's hand.

Once off the throne the Duke of Windsor still posed a problem. A recently released FBI file showed that at a party in Vienna in July 1937 - the month he married Mrs Simpson - the Duke told an Italian diplomat that the Americans had cracked Italy's intelligence codes.

Four months later he and the Duchess paid a high-profile visit to Germany where the Nazi regime fawned on Edward.

Propaganda chief Joseph Goebbels wrote: "It's a shame he is no longer King. With him we would have entered into an alliance."

When war broke out he was made a major-general in France but he continued to communicate with the enemy.

In January 1940 the German minister in The Hague wrote that he had established a direct line of contact to the Duke.

From him the Germans learned that their plans for the invasion of France had fallen into Allied hands.

This intelligence allowed Hitler to change his plans. France duly fell.
Six months later the German ambassador in Lisbon sent a message to Berlin saying: "The Duke believes with certainty that continued heavy bombing would make England ready for peace."

Thus the former King was urging the bombardment of his own people.

Prime Minister Winston Churchill understood the danger he posed and was desperate to get Edward back to Britain, at one stage threatening him with court martial if he refused.

In the end he kept him out of harm's way by making him governor of the Bahamas - a humiliating posting which both the Duke and Duchess detested.

From there, the Duke sent a message to President Roosevelt saying that if the US leader sued for peace with Hitler, he would immediately issue a statement of support. Luckily it never happened.

After the war the Windsors accepted an invitation from France to settle tax-free in Paris. Diana Mosley, wife of the British fascist leader Sir Oswald, was a frequent visitor.

Other guests included Maria Callas, Marlene Dietrich, Cecil Beaton and Elizabeth Taylor and Richard Burton.

Although the Duke had dropped his hopes of returning to live in Britain the couple did pay occasional visits.

Edward attended his brother George VI's funeral in 1952, and the Duke and Duchess visited London in 1965 when they met the Queen and attended the funeral of Edward's sister the Princess Royal.

The last royal ceremony the Duke attended was the funeral of his sister-in-law Princess Marina in 1968.
He died in Paris in 1972 and his body was returned to Britain where he was given a full royal funeral.

The Duchess died 14 years later and was buried alongside him in the Royal Burial Ground at Frogmore, Windsor.

They are best remembered now as star-crossed lovers who fell victim of snobbery and prejudice and gave up the privileges of monarchy to be together. There's some truth in that.

But it's only a small part of the story of the Nazi-sympathising monarch who compromised Britain's war effort at a time of national peril and whose treachery it has suited everyone to write out of history.

He chose Wallis over the throne. He was a pretty sad figure and he and Wallis were jet setters and he had no real roles.  But that said, he remained besotted with Wallis until the end of his life. And the topic here is that he had the guts to choose the woman he loved instead of entering into a marriage to produce heirs and hurt the suitable woman by refusing to give up his mistress. He admitted he could not marry the suitable girl because he knew he could not be faithful.

I think Charles would have chosen the throne over Camilla had he been given the choice.

[TLLK]

^^^Edward's willingness to bomb his own people makes him IMO the leading candidate for the "Worst Member of the Windsor Family."

For whatever faults Charles has I don't believe that he would subject the people of the UK to a similar fate.

[TLLK]

I agree that some politicians were criticising Diana for her stance on landmines. The memory fades (old age creeping on!) however I do seem to remember a sharper tone among British journalists in the last year or two of Diana's life.

It seems to have dated from the photo that appeared of Diana in full makeup and operating cap and mask. It was reported that she visited patients in hospital sometimes at night. I don't know whether the Press knew about how serious it was with Hasnet Khan but I do recall a rather jeering tone about 'Diana, the Angel of Mercy' which hadn't been there before.

I

Many female journalists didn't like Diana. but yes you are quite right in that many many more papers were cool or hostile to her in the last few years.  that's why, As I've pointed out many times, there were hostile stories about her in the papers that had to be hastily pulled when she died so suddenly. The press were a bit tired I think of her manipulations, they were perhaps bored iwht "adoring Diana" for so long, and I think that the mood of the public had changed, that people were fed up with the Wales story, fed up with Diana's "in and out of the limelight" stances, and cooler towards her because of the emerging stories that while she had been complaining bitterly about Cam's intruding on her marriage, she too was flirting with married men, and intruding on THER marriages. And she did seem to behave oddly at times then, I remember that there was a story that she had cellulite and when she next went out to go to the gym, she was seen creeping down some steps as if trying to avoid her legs being photographed..(She ocudl have just worsn trousers?)  and there were the stories of visiting the sick in hospitals which some said was a cover for her romance with Hasnnat Khan.. but to some people, evene if genuine, it seemed a  bit odd and morbid..

IMO like all public figures the glitter wears off over time. The information that was being shared by both camps in the War of the Wales ended up damaging the reputations of Charles, Camilla and Diana IMO. It's too bad that the poor judgement and lack of personal responsibility created problems for so many. :(

[amabel]

TLLK that's true, that all public figures tend ot lose popularity at times, or sometimes permanently.  And the British press does tend to build someone up and then tear them down.  Di Had a long run, she was very popular for al the 80s, and the public and press thought highly of her.  Even so of course lots of people could not see what the appeal was or did not like her. But in the 90s I think that there was a shift from the press mostly thinking well of her and excusing any faults, and disliking Charles.  I think that after her separation, her own behaviour seemed to go a bit out of control.. and the press began to jump on her and attack her over things, and there was more public jeering and sneering, like Linikers joking about her on TV etc, that probably would not have happened earlier.

[sandy]

^^^Edward's willingness to bomb his own people makes him IMO the leading candidate for the "Worst Member of the Windsor Family."

For whatever faults Charles has I don't believe that he would subject the people of the UK to a similar fate.

It's a moot point since Edward abdicated.

[sandy]

I don't see how Diana was "out of control." an "out of control" person would not receive an award for her charity work (last year of her life), sell her iconic gowns for charity, and work on Anti Landmine campaign. She was admired by heads of state and Nelson Mandela wrote a preface to a book about Diana's charities. I don't get the summarizing her late life as "out of control."  I did not see press jumping on her--she sold magazines and papers. I did not see public jeering and sneering. I don't know how this is assumed.

[amabel]

I cant' help feeling that she was more polite to Charles in the last few months because she was beginning to become aware that her public weren't quite as adoring as before and neither were the press.. so it looked better if she was more pleasant to C and did not bash him all the time. and perhaps she realised  that it was hurting the children as well

I believe over time that she realized that her parenting style differed from Charles, but that he did love them deeply and was a good father to them. If their relationship became more cordial then I believe it would have been observed by the boys and that could have been reassuring to them.

Possible but do you have any evidence?  I know that Gilbey said critical things about Charles as a parent in his contribution to Morton, but I don't know if these were rescinded at any stage by Di or her friends. The problem was that in Morton she really attacked Charles, made him out ot be a carton villain, and someone with no good points and I think that that "overkill" in her attack on hm, eventual began to look ridiculous ot the public and they began to think "hang on, he has his faults but is he really THAT bad?"  and once that happened I think that the public were more willing to feel that if Di had lied or exaggerated in er attack on her husband to such an extent, maybe it was all or mostly lies or spite...

[amabel]

Yes, Tiggy was quite a character, just what the boys needed really, down to earth and cheerful! I don't think safety was

I find ti hard to imagine that Cam would use an Americanism. however while rude, it is hardly anyting like accusing her of having an abortion as Di did

She has been accused of reporting that Catherine is sterile in the Globe an article that is being used to justify saying George and baby two are surrogate babies.

sorry?  Who has been accused of saying this? Tiggy?? Camilla?

[TLLK]

I cant' help feeling that she was more polite to Charles in the last few months because she was beginning to become aware that her public weren't quite as adoring as before and neither were the press.. so it looked better if she was more pleasant to C and did not bash him all the time. and perhaps she realised  that it was hurting the children as well

I believe over time that she realized that her parenting style differed from Charles, but that he did love them deeply and was a good father to them. If their relationship became more cordial then I believe it would have been observed by the boys and that could have been reassuring to them.

Possible but do you have any evidence?  I know that Gilbey said critical things about Charles as a parent in his contribution to Morton, but I don't know if these were rescinded at any stage by Di or her friends. The problem was that in Morton she really attacked Charles, made him out ot be a carton villain, and someone with no good points and I think that that "overkill" in her attack on hm, eventual began to look ridiculous ot the public and they began to think "hang on, he has his faults but is he really THAT bad?"  and once that happened I think that the public were more willing to feel that if Di had lied or exaggerated in er attack on her husband to such an extent, maybe it was all or mostly lies or spite...

Absolutely none, :D but I do believe that she realized that her boys were restless in London during their breaks and enjoyed the freedom and activities that Balmoral offered to them. Having the opportunity to visit and bond with both parents after the separation was IMO something that Charles and Diana realized was important to their well being.

[amabel]

Paula good lord this is all nonsense. I can't believe anyone would believe it...

[amabel]

Agree.. but then the custody agreement was that they both saw the boys half the holidays, and of course they were bound to spend a portion of time with the queen.  I don't think that Di wanted to keep them away from their father, but it is not like she Had any real choice, even if she had wanted to.

I think that she DID have to take into account that they were not as happy with the London life and sunny hols as they had been when they were younger, and I think that being on hol with Diana, with the press all round, became more stressful to them.  so she did try and find a country home in England where she could take them and they could do their sports...Im not sure how much though that she actually felt that Charlres's parenting style was  as good in its way as hers...

[PaulaB]

Charles had had a lot of rubbish published about him, his position is hard he is waiting for his role and he treads a fine line it must be hard not to make the odd mistake

[amabel]

H'es made quite a few, but he's essentially someone who has tried to do the right thing, to work at his allocated role and try to do good.

[cate1949]

Edward VII was a traitor and the idea that he and Wallis were victims of bias and prejudice is so much whitewashing and contemporary fuzzy thinking.  After Edward's death his private secretary also revealed a batch of info among which was that Edward did not want to be king but once he realized he and Wallis would be flat broke his plan was to remain King til he could squirrel away a lot of money and then abdicate.

Tiggy must have done something which set off the radar of both Cam and Di - for those two women to agree she was a threat - makes me suspect Charles certainly did have an affection for her.

[amabel]

I don't recall this about Edward.  it think he was willing to be King, but wasn't able to cope with it all without Wallis and perhaps in that sense she was a "get out" for him. but he was well off... he would not be "flat broke".  he had proprieties that he Had inherited from his father.. he also after abdicating pressured Geo VI into helping him further (cant' recall the details but he wasn't flat broke and managed to guilt his broher into making him even richer.
As for Tiggy I don't see that she did anyting.  I think that Di didn't like her because she was too close to the boys, and Cam pobalby was a little jealous of Charles being so friendly ith a younger woman.  Possibly Tiggy did not like Cam, and Cam felt that she would use her positon of closeness to the boys and Charles in a hostile way.  IIRC Tiggy organised a birthday party for Charles nad "forgot" to invite Camilla...

[sandy]

Tiggy made stupid comments to the media and trashed Diana's mothering skills. A real no no. And she said that Will and Harry were "her boys." Something which was sure to irritate Diana. Tiggy was enormously tactless.

Camilla could not stand Tiggy and was said to call her the "help." Tiggy invited Charles and the boys to her wedding but not Camilla. The boys attended the wedding without Charles.

[sandy]

I cant' help feeling that she was more polite to Charles in the last few months because she was beginning to become aware that her public weren't quite as adoring as before and neither were the press.. so it looked better if she was more pleasant to C and did not bash him all the time. and perhaps she realised  that it was hurting the children as well

I believe over time that she realized that her parenting style differed from Charles, but that he did love them deeply and was a good father to them. If their relationship became more cordial then I believe it would have been observed by the boys and that could have been reassuring to them.

Possible but do you have any evidence?  I know that Gilbey said critical things about Charles as a parent in his contribution to Morton, but I don't know if these were rescinded at any stage by Di or her friends. The problem was that in Morton she really attacked Charles, made him out ot be a carton villain, and someone with no good points and I think that that "overkill" in her attack on hm, eventual began to look ridiculous ot the public and they began to think "hang on, he has his faults but is he really THAT bad?"  and once that happened I think that the public were more willing to feel that if Di had lied or exaggerated in er attack on her husband to such an extent, maybe it was all or mostly lies or spite...

Charles made his parents and Diana cartoon villains via his authorized biography. People asked re: CHarles confessions if his parents and Diana were really "that bad."
Double post auto-merged: November 01, 2014, 11:00:35 PM

Agree.. but then the custody agreement was that they both saw the boys half the holidays, and of course they were bound to spend a portion of time with the queen.  I don't think that Di wanted to keep them away from their father, but it is not like she Had any real choice, even if she had wanted to.

I think that she DID have to take into account that they were not as happy with the London life and sunny hols as they had been when they were younger, and I think that being on hol with Diana, with the press all round, became more stressful to them.  so she did try and find a country home in England where she could take them and they could do their sports...Im not sure how much though that she actually felt that Charlres's parenting style was  as good in its way as hers...

I would not agree with that. William and Harry do enjoy London life and sunny holidays. William spent a lot of time on Sunny holidays over the years as did Harry.

I would not make sweeping statements about where they were "happier." They enjoyed both places.

[TLLK]

Tiggy made stupid comments to the media and trashed Diana's mothering skills. A real no no. And she said that Will and Harry were "her boys." Something which was sure to irritate Diana. Tiggy was enormously tactless.

Camilla could not stand Tiggy and was said to call her the "help." Tiggy invited Charles and the boys to her wedding but not Camilla. The boys attended the wedding without Charles.

Tiggy, Camilla, and Diana all made ugly remarks about each other and were all incredibly insensitive at times. 

[sandy]

I was explaining why Diana was not happy with what Tiggy said.

[TLLK]

Thank you for sharing.  I added that all three were insensitive and made ugly remarks about each other. :)

[TLLK]

Agree.. but then the custody agreement was that they both saw the boys half the holidays, and of course they were bound to spend a portion of time with the queen.  I don't think that Di wanted to keep them away from their father, but it is not like she Had any real choice, even if she had wanted to.

I think that she DID have to take into account that they were not as happy with the London life and sunny hols as they had been when they were younger, and I think that being on hol with Diana, with the press all round, became more stressful to them.  so she did try and find a country home in England where she could take them and they could do their sports...Im not sure how much though that she actually felt that Charlres's parenting style was  as good in its way as hers...

Do you know if she was actively looking for a country spot where the three could get away? I agree the boys were finding other interests at that age and the old vacation spots were not holding the same appeal.  I wonder if her brother would have allowed them to make use of some of the properties at Althorp?

Did you read about the dude ranch in the American west that William had an opportunity to visit one year? Diana arranged for the trip and he with his RPOs were sent off for a two/three week experience. One of the counselors finally shared the story which included hanging a pre-teen William by his belt from a tree branch. :lol: Only the staff knew who he was and other guests didn't guess. Before they left the RPOs and William shopped for and prepared an English tea party for the staff complete with cucumber sandwiches.  :D