Diana's emotional health

Started by Duch_Luver_4ever, July 21, 2017, 04:56:14 AM

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Duch_Luver_4ever

A thread to discuss the emotional and mental health of the late Diana, Princess of Wales.


Secretary of late Princess Diana tells all on her eating disorder hell

So mentioned this in passing in another thread, but I think it merits more discussion. As usual its one of the usual cast that needs either attention or money again. I know the subject of non expert diagnosis is a touchy subject here, so im sure itll be a lively discussion.

Jephsons mixed record in first reviling, then promoting Diana always makes me look askance at him. Seems the theme of the month, media or others seeking attention and favor, and im sure hes run the numbers and realized theres more money for him in promoting Diana vs criticizing her, although im sure like a lot of people when we leave our job we're sometimes less than thrilled about our boss, considering he didnt have much choice after Panorama it understandable but he always seems kinda weasle-y to me.

But seems hes digging out this gem for the 20th anniversary sweepstakes. But given the family history with Sarah having it, and her appearance for the first couple years after the engagement, she shrank and shrank, where even herself mentioned one of the things that made her bulimia harder for people to detect was that one stays the same size having it, so its a possible explanation, her shrinking has often been attributed to her bulimia, but her own words give us a clue that maybe what hes saying is on target.

What does everyone else think?
"No other member of the Royal Family mattered that year, or I think for the next 17 years, it was just her." Arthur Edwards, The Sun Photographer, talking about Diana's impact.

Curryong

I do think that what Jephson said regarding Diana's bulimia is probably correct. Feelings of wanting to disappear, of feeling like an outsider but also gaining validation from helping others are apparently quite common among bulimics in the literature I've read. However, Diana probably never really discussed her eating disorders in any depth with her staff, as a person untrained in psychiatry she may not have fully realised what the motivations behind her eating disorder really signified, and of course, as far as I know none of us are psychiatrists or therapists working in the area of eating disorders, so we can't say yea or nay to it really.

I do think the bulimia came from a lot of different things, which we have discussed here; not being the wanted son and heir, her mother's seeming abandonment of her, feeling 'dumb' because she didn't achieve at school, Raine becoming the central figure in her beloved father's life. Then there was the gradual realisation that the husband on whom she'd centred all her dreams and hopes was never hers, body image issues, enormous fame, and that her work, including strenuous tours, were undervalued by the BRF and TPTB at Buck Palace. It was probably all these and more, an enormously complex collection of reasons.

amabel

there are different kinds of bulimia.  Some bulimics don't lose that much weight, others vomit a lot and don't take in enough calories to maintain their weight.  Diana dieted and exercised obsessively, then binged and threw up what she was eating so its hardly surprising that she fainted and shrank in weight..
She referred to the vomtting as "comforting" like "having a pair of arms around you..".. so it clearly was a comfort to her to "stop herself gaining weight"..

royalanthropologist

I have come to the conclusion that Patrick Jepherson never really liked Diana at all. He thought she could have been a great Princess of Wales and Queen if she had not antagonized the royal family. I suspect he did advise her to tone it down but she ignored his pleas. Panorama was the last straw because she was going behind his back and engaging in activities that were seriously damaging to her and her position. I understand he resigned after that program was aired. The articles he wrote afterwards are torn between admiring Diana for her PR prowess/charitable activities and hating her for not being disciplined enough to control her emotional responses to those she perceived to be against her.

As for the mental health issues, Diana did confess that she suffered from bulimia. She had seen doctors about it and they had successfully treated her.  Some of the symptomatic presentations of that condition can be very similar to other mental health issues such as anorexia and BPD. It would have required a diagnostic assessment  by a psychiatrist to truly understand what Diana was suffering from so that an appropriate intervention could be arranged.

It is very tempting to post-diagnose someone as having a condition based on perceived traits in their personality and the choreography of their life. Many authors are engaging in postmortem diagnoses of Diana by simply looking at the APA manual and then matching items to incidents in Diana's life. That is not a very accurate form of diagnosis; although the general consensus that Diana suffered from some form of mental illness at some stage in her life. The actual condition(s) she suffered from may be confidential matters that are only known to her and her doctors.
"In the past, people were born royal. Nowadays, royalty comes from what you do"...Gianni Versace

amabel

I have certainly Read that she suffered from a form of bulimia which was "anoriexic" in that it involved losing weight rather than like some bulimics who don't lose much weight.
I dotnt believe that Jephson hated her, but I don't think he liked her much.  He resigned because he was finding her difficult to work with, and he felt that his position when she had done Bashir behnd his back, was untenable.  so  his book about her is hostile in tone, because he had left her service in a bad frame of mind.  IIRC he said that she had left messages on his phone saying something like "the boss knows of your disloyalty" and he felt that he was not wanted any more and coudn't work with her because she was so erratic.
Now I think that he tends to write more sympathetically because he realises that to go on being hostile to her all the timewould not get him many readers.. and he has to spin out his stories and give tehm new twists.

sandy

#5
Jephson had some sympathy for DIana. His books did not spare Charles and he reported a rather unpleasant scene of Diana being put down by Charles. The time she was asked what she was planning to do on a royal tour, and Charles cut in and said "Shopping isn't it Darling?" Diana had some actual plans in place to visit charities. I don't think Jephson was a big fan of the PRince of Wales. I read his books and he disapproved of what she did but he did indeed express sympathy with her regarding her domestic situation with the Prince. That anecdote about the shopping remark has found its way into the literature of Charles and Diana. And confirms what Diana said about Charles attitude towards her.

https://books.google.com/books?id=bX98AQAAQBAJ&pg=PA177&lpg=PA177&dq=charles+jephson+diana+shopping+isn%27t+it+darling&source=bl&ots=9qdrBFURTt&sig=jITrvvvXj3UV-CEvIPWrnVk1p2k&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjzzufBnprVAhXGVj4KHXjhBaAQ6AEIIjAA#v=onepage&q=charles%20jephson%20diana%20shopping%20isn't%20it%20darling&f=false

Diana's doctor diagnosed her condition as bulimia nervosa. Sarah Spencer  was diagnosed ( by the same doctor) as anorexia nervosa.



Double post auto-merged: July 21, 2017, 11:15:32 AM


Quote from: royalanthropologist on July 21, 2017, 08:40:03 AM
I have come to the conclusion that Patrick Jepherson never really liked Diana at all. He thought she could have been a great Princess of Wales and Queen if she had not antagonized the royal family. I suspect he did advise her to tone it down but she ignored his pleas. Panorama was the last straw because she was going behind his back and engaging in activities that were seriously damaging to her and her position. I understand he resigned after that program was aired. The articles he wrote afterwards are torn between admiring Diana for her PR prowess/charitable activities and hating her for not being disciplined enough to control her emotional responses to those she perceived to be against her.

As for the mental health issues, Diana did confess that she suffered from bulimia. She had seen doctors about it and they had successfully treated her.  Some of the symptomatic presentations of that condition can be very similar to other mental health issues such as anorexia and BPD. It would have required a diagnostic assessment  by a psychiatrist to truly understand what Diana was suffering from so that an appropriate intervention could be arranged.

It is very tempting to post-diagnose someone as having a condition based on perceived traits in their personality and the choreography of their life. Many authors are engaging in postmortem diagnoses of Diana by simply looking at the APA manual and then matching items to incidents in Diana's life. That is not a very accurate form of diagnosis; although the general consensus that Diana suffered from some form of mental illness at some stage in her life. The actual condition(s) she suffered from may be confidential matters that are only known to her and her doctors.

What general consensus. The only ones with the tittle tattle about Diana "suffering from some form of mental illness" are Junor and Smith. Dimbleby tried but Diana was still  alive and would sue him so he did  not use the amateur diagnosis based on a College Psychology textbook. Once Diana died, Junor appropriated it. Diana was diagnosed with bulimia nervosa. If she had "anything else" I believe she would have admitted to it before she died.

Trudie

Quote from: royalanthropologist on July 21, 2017, 08:40:03 AM
I have come to the conclusion that Patrick Jepherson never really liked Diana at all. He thought she could have been a great Princess of Wales and Queen if she had not antagonized the royal family. I suspect he did advise her to tone it down but she ignored his pleas. Panorama was the last straw because she was going behind his back and engaging in activities that were seriously damaging to her and her position. I understand he resigned after that program was aired. The articles he wrote afterwards are torn between admiring Diana for her PR prowess/charitable activities and hating her for not being disciplined enough to control her emotional responses to those she perceived to be against her.

As for the mental health issues, Diana did confess that she suffered from bulimia. She had seen doctors about it and they had successfully treated her.  Some of the symptomatic presentations of that condition can be very similar to other mental health issues such as anorexia and BPD. It would have required a diagnostic assessment  by a psychiatrist to truly understand what Diana was suffering from so that an appropriate intervention could be arranged.

It is very tempting to post-diagnose someone as having a condition based on perceived traits in their personality and the choreography of their life. Many authors are engaging in postmortem diagnoses of Diana by simply looking at the APA manual and then matching items to incidents in Diana's life. That is not a very accurate form of diagnosis; although the general consensus that Diana suffered from some form of mental illness at some stage in her life. The actual condition(s) she suffered from may be confidential matters that are only known to her and her doctors.

To answer your question on Jephson I believer you are right he neither disliked her or liked her but my observation of him he envisioned a role with Diana not only as Princess of Wales but also a separated Queen. I think he truly thought that Major spoke the truth when he said in Parliament there were no plans for divorce especially after 2 years where they legally could divorce they were separated 4 years before the Queen ordered the divorce.

As for Diana's eating disorder it was Bulimia though from my own experience she didn't suffer from BPD but Anxiety and Panic disorder. I developed it during my first marriage from the stress of doing everything to please the family I married into. Diana was thrown into public duties even during the engagement and that was the start of the Bulimia with her wanting to please both the RF and public. First would come the anxiety and panic attacks and then the binging and purging that came from the anxiety and panic. I lost a tremendous amount of weight going down to 90 pounds as I would eat but the purging came from an anxiety/ panic attack and yes I had the mood swings as well. It also brings on erratic behavior and to be honest yes I felt like Diana the purging was comforting and therapy not to mention a divorce brought relief. I noticed that at the end of Diana's life she had not only got help that brought it under control but she looked so much healthier and happier post separation. I found it was not so much a mental illness as it is a disorder that develops from being made to feel inferior. In my case it was I was the right religion I was Episcopal he was Catholic, My parents were divorced, I was unable to carry a child to term I had preemies and I was unable to breast feed as my sister in law was able to she was super mom. The list goes on but I hope you get a general idea of those feeling of inadequacy and my Ex not only was emotionally but physically abusive as well and having an affair with my cousin.  It does make one want to disappear. Now magnify what Diana had to go through in public and private wanting to please all though she was lucky that Charles wasn't physically abusive toward her.



amabel

She had other disorders. She had depression, she self harmed she made suicide attempts according to herself. she certainly had a serious eating disorder and it was never completely "under control"...

Curryong

'In 1967 two US naval researchers, Dr Thomas Holmes, a psychiatrist, and Richard Rahe, a scientist, had devised 'The Social Readjustment Rating Scale.' According to that formula Diana scored a 407 on a Scale at which 150-299 could lead to mental illness.
Stress chart indicators included marriage, pregnancy, career changes, changes in work responsibilities, outstanding personal achievements, change in living conditions, revision of personal habits, changes in work hours and conditions, change in church activities, change in residence, change in social activities, change in recreation, change in family get-togethers, holidays and Christmas.'

Diana was engaged at 19, married at 20 into a completely different way of life, and had her first child at twenty one. She was thrust into royal duties immediately after the honeymoon and undertook a tour of Wales soon after. She was a success as Princess of Wales.

Looking at the Rating Scale above, how many of us would cope with so many changes in such a short time, with no real emotional support from our own family or in laws?
Have a look at those stress indicators. Diana experienced almost every one.

amabel

I doubt if any one of these factors causes something like bulimia or self harming.  Depression and stress, yes but to react ot the depressin and stress by cutting yourself is not what most people would do.

Curryong

^ I was just pointing out that Diana was under horrendous stress from the moment of her engagement, never mind all the issues of her childhood. Looking at those stress indicators increases my sympathy and respect for a young girl who was facing enormous challenges.

TLLK

QuoteDiana was engaged at 19, married at 20 into a completely different way of life, and had her first child at twenty one. She was thrust into royal duties immediately after the honeymoon and undertook a tour of Wales soon after. She was a success as Princess of Wales.

Looking at the Rating Scale above, how many of us would cope with so many changes in such a short time, with no real emotional support from our own family or in laws?
Have a look at those stress indicators. Diana experienced almost every one.

:goodpost:@Curryong- Like CP Victoria of Sweden who also suffered from and eating disorder in her late teens/early twenties, Diana found her world changing very rapidly after her engagement. The pressure to be "picture perfect" didn't help either.

Fortunately both women were able to seek treatment for this serious and potentially life threatening mental illness. CP Victoria appears to have had a complete recovery. Unfortunately we'll never know if Diana would have had a relapse or would she have been able to maintain her recovery.

TLLK

QuoteAs for Diana's eating disorder it was Bulimia though from my own experience she didn't suffer from BPD but Anxiety and Panic disorder
I would believe that there is every possibility that Diana could have been diagnosed with Anxiety and Panic Disorder. Thank you for sharing about this @Trudie.

Trudie

@TLLK I am speaking from my own experience but what Diana exhibited is almost the same symptoms with the exception I didn't do self harm. However anxiety and panic attacks can bring on bouts of bulimia and also depression is a big part of the problem. Although my situation was not on the scale of Diana being in the public eye like her I married, had a huge change and had my first child all within the first year of marriage and I was 19. I am no psychiatrist or therapist however the symptoms are classic and do not point to BPD.



sandy

When Diana lived on her own, had the part time jobs, and shared an apartment she did not have any issues.  She was brought into a stressful situation after she moved into BP and stress brought on the bulimia symptoms.

Curryong

^ Yes, before her engagement (the worst thing in hindsight that could ever have happened to a vulnerable young girl, and she WAS only a girl) Diana was living in a flat in a friendly apartment block, having fun with pals, going out to the cinema, to spaghetti restaurants, having some weekends in the country with friends. She was productive in her own way, with her cleaning and child caring. No sign of bulimia.

And why couldn't she go out with Charles and her friends doing the same thing? Oh, that's right, her friends were lightweights in Charles's eyes and he was away overseas anyway throughout half the engagement.

While that was happening Diana was stuck away in an apartment in BP, bored, lonely and stressed. She lost pounds in weight, a forerunner of what was to come. Great development in her lifestyle!

royalanthropologist

#16
@Trudie. Your testimony (if I can call it that) moved me to tears. What a douche that first husband of yours was and there are simply no words to describe the cousin. You must have a lot of mental resources to be able to come through that.

Double post auto-merged: July 22, 2017, 05:20:36 AM


As for mental health issues: some say that every person goes through mental health problems at some point in their lives. Some are better able to cope or mask those issues than others. Living in a fish bowl with detached in-laws and a non-existent family support system can be quite a challenge. I am sure it did contribute to Diana's mental health issues. That being said; I do not entirely rule out the impact of heredity and family history given the fact that some of Diana's siblings suffered eating disorders and her brother has somewhat dysfunctional personal relationships with his various spouses.
"In the past, people were born royal. Nowadays, royalty comes from what you do"...Gianni Versace

amabel

#17
Quote from: Curryong on July 22, 2017, 02:17:48 AM
^ Yes, before her engagement (the worst thing in hindsight that could ever have happened to a vulnerable young girl, and she WAS only a girl) Diana was living in a flat in a friendly apartment block, having fun with pals, going out to the cinema, to spaghetti restaurants, having some weekends in the country with friends. She was productive in her own way, with her cleaning and child caring. No sign of bulimia.

And why couldn't she go out with Charles and her friends doing the same thing? Oh, that's right, her friends were lightweights in Charles's eyes and he was away overseas anyway throughout half the engagement.


sorry but of course her life was going  to change radically if she married the POW.  Charles isn't to blame for his being away, it was his job.  And Diana was undertaking not just a marriage but a new job and a new lifestyle in marrying nto the RF... of course she could not go on doing a bit of cleaning and childcare and just hanging out with her friends.

Double post auto-merged: July 22, 2017, 06:35:37 AM


Quote from: royalanthropologist on July 22, 2017, 05:15:48 AM
@Trudie. Your testimony (if I can call it that) moved me to tears. What a douche that first husband of yours was and there are simply no words to describe the cousin. You must have a lot of mental resources to be able to come through that.

Double post auto-merged: July 22, 2017, 05:20:36 AM


As for mental health issues: some say that every person goes through mental health problems at some point in their lives. Some are better able to cope or mask those issues than others. Living in a fish bowl with detached in-laws and a non-existent family support system can be quite a challenge. I am sure it did contribute to Diana's mental health issues. That being said; I do not entirely rule out the impact of heredity and family history given the fact that some of Diana's siblings suffered eating disorders and her brother has somewhat dysfunctional personal relationships with his various spouses.
Obviously it has to do with Diana herself and her heredity.. other women have married into the RF and not reacted as she did.  It is sad, but one thing was that she was too fragile to handle the pressure and the strain. Fergie cracked to a certain extent, (and she got a lot more nasty press than Di ever did) but she did not self harm, make suicide attempts or become bulimic.
It  is posslble that Diana's psyche was such that she could only handle a very "low stress" life.. and that had she married an ordinary upper class man, her problems mght have lain dormant.  But if she had had some strain in that lifestyle as well, say a bout of post natal depression,  or her husband having an affair, or just perhaps being busy iwht his own life.. she might have developed a severe depression that caused more problems

Curryong

That's a remarkably unsympathetic and dismissive response there, amabel, to a girl who was facing enormous changes in her life in her late teens. So she should have just got on with it, and other women in Royal families didn't cut themselves or attempt suicide! BTW, I thought you have always contended that Diana didn't in fact try to commit suicide?

I think that Diana's situation was in fact unique. The BRF has a media spotlight on them that other royal families do not have, and therefore other crown princesses haven't had to deal with it. From the time of her engagement Diana was facing media attention like practically no-one before or since, as well as all the stress involved in the Camilla thing, and learning her new role and a new way of life.

People like Sophie and Kate had years to get used to their fiancés' duties and way of life, and they didn't marry the heir to the throne.  Who knows, if they had been thrown in at the deep end after a short engagement and a spectacular wedding with world attention on them,  they might have ended up with a nervous breakdown or depression as well.

What other person in modern Royal history who married-in can you point to who had the pressures on them that Diana had?

And Charles mustn't be criticised because after all he was the POW and had his work. Why? He was hardly the President of the US, Sec of the UN, or a brain surgeon going overseas to save someone's life. One of his new biographers has questioned why he couldn't have foreshortened his Australian tour in the wake of his engagement, and indeed he could have done so.

It may have been better if Charles had paused in his mission to save the world and devoted a bit of time and love and attention to his new fiancee instead of mooning over the 'what might have been's with Mrs PB', and his callings in the architecture, medical and environmental fields. Thank heavens after Diana's dreadful experiences the BRF has come to its senses a bit in how it treats young brides!

amabel

well its funny how so many people have criticised Kate for not doing enough and when I've argued that she has been treated with the "new" policy of gradually learning and slowly working her way into Royal life I've been criticised for saying this.. and the idea seems ot be that she should be working and working.. as Diana was said to do.  (although I understand that Di's number of engagements in her early years of marriage was roughly the same as Kate's).
I don't believe that I said Diana did not make suicide attempts.  however I don't think she made serious ones.. I believe she did cut herself, which isn't normal behaviour.. But she said that she threw herself downstairs with the intention of hurting or killing herself. 
I don't know if there were other attempts, but I think they were very half hearted.. I suspect if there had been more vehement ones like takng Overdoses and getting found in time, it would have come out...
but I simply am not going to blame Charles for doing his job, and believing that his fiancée was able to cope with his being away for a few weeks..
Diana wasn't IMO able for royal life and I don't know if anything would have helped.  She was still unhappy even when Charles was home.. so clearly his staying with her and "giving up his mission to save the world" as you unkindly put it would likely not have made any difference.

amabel

he had a job to do as POW.  If he had told the queen he wanted to cut short a tour to stay home with his fiancée, I'm sure he would have bene told the tour had been arranged 6 months before and could not be changed.  Clearly Diana COULD Not coep wit life in the RF, where at thte time "Duty was all".
Nor could Fergie.  But Sarah while she did crack up to a  certain extent, did not have the same problems as Diana had. she over ate, had a "mini nervous breakdown" etc,but she wasnt' weeping, seriously depressed, cutting herself or trying suicide.. that I know of.
Yes it is very sad that Diana was in some ways so sutiable as a princess, so good at parts of the job,but so unable to cope with the pressure.  But I don't see how the RF cuodl have understood that.  They assumed that anyone who married into the family knew the score, that they knew that they would be expected to live in a certain way, to do a lot of dull duties and while they had a lot of leisure and privilege it too was restricted..  The queen has always led that Spartan simple life with hols in Balmoral partly from inclination and parlty because she knows that it makes the RF seem less distant form the ordinary people, if they are seen to be spending their hols in the rian ad cold.
Fergie and Diana both should have known that the RF 's lifestyle was the way it was, and that it wasn't going to change for them.. However Fergie is pretty dim and Diana was not clever and had a facility for blinding herself to everything outside her immediate life.  She wanted to marry Charles, she believed she was in love with him and that she'd be happy with him..and so she closed her eyes to anytign that suggested she wasn't really well up enough on royal life to understand how  things were done...
Of course it was tragic that she wasn't able to cope.. but I think ti is possible that another upper class girl, even one of 20 or so, wodl have coped a lot better.



sandy

Diana could and did cope with life in the royal family--she was a success at her work for the royal family. During her engagement she did not get to live with her family or friends and was placed in the "royal" world even before she married Charles. Why should she not have been concerned when her fiance went off on a tour soon after the engagement. Maybe the engagement could have been postponed a bit so Charles could have had more of a free calendar. It was not "duty" that Diana had to deal with. It was her husband's attachment to another woman. Diana did cope with the pressure as she became customed to her role as Princess of Wales. Fergie OTOH had a bad attitude and spent money like water and started getting bored and getting involved with her "financial advisors". Andrew did not have anybody on the side but she just got very bored with it all. Diana also believed Charles loved her. Diana was up to the job of royal life but she was not going to be happy about the "mistress" tradition. Charles should have spelled it out. I think DIana was smart and clever otherwise she would not have been some dim woman who became a doormat. IT all depended on how the woman would cope with Camilla. That was the root of someone being married to Charles. Women who had self respect would not "cope" with it. Charles should have spelled out ahead of time  how Diana should behave within the marriage, that she had to play nice and put up with Camilla.

Trudie

Quote from: royalanthropologist on July 22, 2017, 05:15:48 AM
@Trudie. Your testimony (if I can call it that) moved me to tears. What a douche that first husband of yours was and there are simply no words to describe the cousin. You must have a lot of mental resources to be able to come through that.

Double post auto-merged: July 22, 2017, 05:20:36 AM


As for mental health issues: some say that every person goes through mental health problems at some point in their lives. Some are better able to cope or mask those issues than others. Living in a fish bowl with detached in-laws and a non-existent family support system can be quite a challenge. I am sure it did contribute to Diana's mental health issues. That being said; I do not entirely rule out the impact of heredity and family history given the fact that some of Diana's siblings suffered eating disorders and her brother has somewhat dysfunctional personal relationships with his various spouses.

Thanks royal but as I have said the scale of Diana's change anyone would develop anxiety and panic issues especially in a position of having to please and in fact having the personality of a people pleaser. Family history can also play a role and I have no doubt that Diana's upbringing as well as that of her siblings did contribute to all this and anxiety and panic disorder actually comes out in the teen, early adult years especially when there are major changes in your life. Many start with going to college a major life change, starting new jobs, marriage and babies. I am sure Diana's bulimia started out as anxiety, panic attacks and yes once that purging starts it actually does make you feel better and I think in Diana's case she purged before being seen in public to ward off the horrible anxiety/ panic attacks.



amabel

Quote from: sandy on July 22, 2017, 10:51:56 AM
Diana could and did cope with life in the royal family--she was a success at her work for the royal family. 
She didn't cope well with life within the RF.  She was ill and bulimic on her honeymoon, and they were worrying about her, and she was seeing a psychiatrist from early on..
She didn't fit in well with the RF at leisure, even if she was good at the public side of the job.

Trudie

@amabel I do have to agree Diana was ill and bulimic on her honeymoon after all the stress of the wedding and not even having a totally private honeymoon. Charles didn't seem all that interested in his new wife as he said he sat hermit like on the veranda sinking with pure joy into his Vander Post and Jung book while Diana was chatting up the crew. I don't know also how a new bride would cope for two months being isolated at Balmoral all the guests there were friends of the RF and they treated Diana as if she were glass and with all the clothing changes and hoping to dress appropriately and make small talk to people a great deal older than her was not good.