Camilla \'Broke Prince Charles\'s heart\' books claim says

[royalanthropologist]

I think the Windsors lost their moral shin long, long time ago. I think about time too...the way they treated Wallis Simpson was a touch hypocritical when you consider how many divorces they have notched up since then. I also happen to think that the queen as a mother herself could have done more to stop what was a tragedy of a marriage happening.

Like I said about forcing or not forcing, it is Charles' feelings and he described them in his own words about the consequences of his father's letter. I once read that at the height of the marriage collapse he used to walk around with the letter telling his friends "look, what they did to me".

I have also never believed that Diana truly loved Charles. How could she...she hardly knew the man??? She was in love with him as a concept rather than as another human being with his own strengths and weaknesses. In all her descriptions of him right from the start, she never ever mentions a single thing that she finds attractive about him. It is all about how she hoped he would look after her and make her happy. That is not love, it is a romantic fiction.

[Curryong]

Charles blamed others for his marriage, something he is fond of doing according to his biographies. I believe Diana was in love with Charles. Even if we accept (which I don't) that it was a romantic pink cloud fantasy, then that (at 19) was at least a thousand times better than marrying a woman you know you don't love because your father 'forces' you into it at 32!

And if there were only a relatively few dates whose fault was that? Charles could have stonewalled for a couple of months, (even if he was completely panicked), and fitted another couple of dozen dates in before proposing.

[royalanthropologist]

I did listen to Diana's description of her courtship, proposal and wedding. If you want to know what went wrong with that marriage, it is all there. Charles gave all the indications that he was a very reluctant suitor; going away for months with very little contact. Sometimes the staff would  be so embarrassed so they would buy flowers. Diana would know that it was not Charles but the staff trying to save her blushes ( of course that throws into question her later recriminations that it was the men in grey suits who made her life so miserable in the family).

Please remember that the queen and DOE are not ordinary parents. They can and will force you to do things you do not particularly want. Not only do they have the moral authority of a parent, but they have the actual power of the crown. There are countless stories of people who have been forced to do things at the behest of the monarch or their consort regardless of their personal feelings. I think Princess Margaret could have written a book about that.

The idea that just because Charles was 32, he could easily defy his parents is in my view a failure to understand his relationship with his parents. Even Diana herself was the recipient of a royal command to divorce, but coached in very gentle terms. She knew and everybody knew that this was a command that she could not refuse no matter what she wanted. By then Diana was 35 and had this huge following of devotees with a fully fledged PR outfit supporting her all the way. Even that was not enough to defy a simple letter from the queen.

Diana's descriptions of Charles during that period read like a terrible Barbara Cartland sequel. He is either dull, obsessed, boring and neglectful; or the hero that will rescue her from a dysfunctional childhood. It really was childish mush. There is not a single time or moment that Diana says "I love this person because of x and x qualities". Saying that you love someone does not mean you do, as Diana soon learn to her cost. Diana did not have a single insight into who Charles was or what his interests were. Just a little investigation would have informed her immediately of who and what Camilla was. Instead she was caught up in these silly ideas of a prince to the rescue.

As for Charles, it was quite clear his young bride bored him to death from the word go. His responses are listless and uncertain.  He knew little about her and had no interest in anything she had to contribute. He describes her as if he were making a catalog for a painting that is not really in his life. Compare that with how he describes his grandmother or Camilla. It is almost like another person speaking. The voice softens and his expressions are certain. He can tell you in very clear terms what he loves about the QM and Camilla. With Diana; all he could muster was "whatever love means".

A simple inquiry into Diana's life and family would immediately have indicate to Charles the problems ahead. All the signs were there to see but he was not really looking at them. Diana was nowhere ready to sustain a long term relationship, let alone a marriage.  Charles was the very worst husband she could have picked and she was the very worst wife he could have picked. Charles is capable of being happy and contended with the right person. His current marriage has completely transformed him. Even the workers at the palace are amazed at how much easier it is to deal with him since he married Camilla. That tells me that the bad marriage probably contributed to making him very, very unhappy and he too acted out.

I am not in a habit of apportioning blame in precise terms (e.g. a thousand times etc.) for a failure of a marriage unless I am part of that marriage. Just because someone is more effective at putting their case forward does not mean that they are right or accurate in their descriptions. Diana was a particularly immature 19 year old who had been very poorly socialized for the state that she was meant to be in as a Princess of Wales.

Charles was an old man set in his ways who needed a wife who was understanding, supportive and non-challenging. Diana was the exact opposite of what he needed or wanted. When he realized, she was not what he wanted; he just ignored her. She reacted by acting up and then she really began to repulse him to the extent that he could no longer bear to share her bed.  It all started with not being in love because you do not know the other person very well. Neither Charles nor Diana were ever in love with one another. It was the beginning of the end for their relationship and marriage.

[sandy]

Royals do have "people" doing things for them, yes even buying flowers. I don't think Charles meant this to put down Diana. He just sent "people" to do this. He had staff sorting out the wedding presents, he had a huge staff to do the work. I never heard the staff being "embarrassed" by their getting flowers for Diana.

Nobody could "force" Charles to marry anybody. there was tremendous pressure on Prince Edward to marry and settle down. He did not. He did write that he knew he could not love the suitable girl as much as his mistress (at first Freda Dudley Ward). He was honest with himself.  It was not as if Charles was not the only one in the family who could reproduce. That's why they have a line of succession. Suppose Charles had been sterile, there was a provision for the next monarch in place.

WIth all that she went through, I think Diana was very ready for a divorce. Why would she want to put up with hostility from Charles?

Charles had no business proposing to Diana who was smitten with him. Looking at the "Signs" of his being "bored" with her is just more evidence that he behaved in a dishonest way with her.

Unless Charles got a pre nup and told his bride ahead of time she should expect no love match with him, his going into a marriage preferring a mistress over the bride was unrealistic to say the least.

I think the Windsors lost their moral shin long, long time ago. I think about time too...the way they treated Wallis Simpson was a touch hypocritical when you consider how many divorces they have notched up since then. I also happen to think that the queen as a mother herself could have done more to stop what was a tragedy of a marriage happening.

Like I said about forcing or not forcing, it is Charles' feelings and he described them in his own words about the consequences of his father's letter. I once read that at the height of the marriage collapse he used to walk around with the letter telling his friends "look, what they did to me".

I have also never believed that Diana truly loved Charles. How could she...she hardly knew the man??? She was in love with him as a concept rather than as another human being with his own strengths and weaknesses. In all her descriptions of him right from the start, she never ever mentions a single thing that she finds attractive about him. It is all about how she hoped he would look after her and make her happy. That is not love, it is a romantic fiction.

I think the reverse is true. I always thought Charles had a more abstract view of marriage and married life. He did not consider how the wife would feel about his ideas of marriage. I think Diana did love Charles. If she did not she could not have cared less if Charles went to Camilla and would have been pragmatic and cynical about it. She might even have played "sister wife" with Camilla.  No, it was not romantic fiction. Diana did not fantasize that Charles came a courting. He did court her and it was rather a whirlwind courtship.

Diana called Charles "amazing." I also think Diana had great sympathy for Charles after his Great Uncle Died. Telling him how sad he looked at the Funeral.  That did appeal to Charles. I do think Diana went into the marriage in a sincere way. Charles knew he preferred Camilla. I think Charles should have spelled out all his expectations. I think it would hurt any woman to find out after the wedding that the husband is still contacting his ex and going to her for advice. I think both should have gone to counseling to sort things out and talk about their expectations. If Diana did not think she would be happy under Charles' strictures, she could have walked before he proposed. I do think he sweet talked her during the courtship. If Diana had had a serious relationship pre Charles she would have been more savvy about her courtship with Charles.
Double post auto-merged: July 07, 2017, 09:02:21 PM

Charles blamed others for his marriage, something he is fond of doing according to his biographies. I believe Diana was in love with Charles. Even if we accept (which I don't) that it was a romantic pink cloud fantasy, then that (at 19) was at least a thousand times better than marrying a woman you know you don't love because your father 'forces' you into it at 32!

And if there were only a relatively few dates whose fault was that? Charles could have stonewalled for a couple of months, (even if he was completely panicked), and fitted another couple of dozen dates in before proposing.

Yes, Charles could indeed have waited a few more months. Maybe have a one year courtship before proposing. Diana would have the chance to observe the pitfalls and I think she would have gotten a much better idea of the role Camilla was playing in Charles' life.
Double post auto-merged: July 07, 2017, 09:08:45 PM

A marriage is made up of two people (more in some cultures but not the European ones). Charles proposed and Diana accepted. He said he felt pressurized to marry before he was ready. She said she had doubts about her husbands love for her. Despite both these misgivings, they agreed to get married. Charles said he wanted to and tried to make the marriage work at first. She did not dispute that fact. Around 1984 things came to a head. He moved out and effectively began to live with his mistress. She remained in the family home and started having an affair (or even affairs depending on whom you believe).

That was the time to call it a day on the marriage. From 1984 to 1996; it was all a complete waste of time. These were people that could not stand to be in the same house and an early divorce was the best solution. Divorce is a human right and ought to be available to everyone regardless of status or rank. It is inhumane to insist that someone remains in a marriage where they are unhappy and doing serious harm (emotional, psychological and physical) to one another. I hope the monarchy has learnt never again to force people to marry or remain married against their express will.

What outsiders imagine, want or do not want cannot make someone love someone. No amount of pressure was going to make Charles love Diana or stop loving Camilla. Insisting that they had to marry or even remain married was a terrible mistake that cost each other a lot of time and unhappiness. It also led to serious reputation problems for the monarchy. Had C&D not married at all or alternatively divorced amicably in 1984; we would not be having all these silly squabbles about who was at fault and who was not.

As for the moderation, I have a lot of sympathy for the moderators. It can be hard trying to get any consensus when some commentators are determined to stick to their tunnel vision of things. Then you have the professional victims who run to the mods for cover whenever someone says something they do not like or do not agree with. It can all be tiresome; so my sympathies to the mods.

How can a "consensus" be made on a discussion board. And nobody here has tunnel vision or are professional victims. Please no more put downs--I think THAT was the point of the  mods.. If there is a consensus then it is a fan site which I don't see this as being.

Diana never said Charles tried to make the marriage work. Oh if only he had!

Diana should not have been put in the humiliating position of being second best (or maybe not even second best) to Charles.

Double post auto-merged: July 07, 2017, 09:34:12 PM

Charles wasn't 'forced' to marry anyone. He proposed to Diana, in spite of doubts, because he was frightened of his father and didn't have the guts to stand up to him, (even though he was thirty two), and say 'No, I won't!' and give the reasons.

I cannot imagine Prince Philip himself, or indeed any other Prince in Europe (Felipe, Philippe, Frederik, Willem Alexander et al) behaving as that waffling jelly did in 1980. But then, they all have backbones.

Arguably, George V was a lot stricter than Prince Philip. He demanded his children show up on time for all meals and so on. However, Prince Edward did not marry despite all the pressure and censure from his father. I think he had the backbone that Charles lacked. He refused to "settle" and married the woman of his choice and moved heaven and earth to do so.