How did Diana do in school?

Started by LouisFerdinand, March 05, 2017, 12:08:59 AM

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royalanthropologist

Interesting take @amabel. I tend to think Diana had a good brain (whatever that means) but it was not fully exploited by a disciplined formal education and thorough training. Princess Michael of Kent once did an interview in which she commented that Diana was a good person but her problems started when she began to believe her own publicity. Apparently Princess Michael surmised that Diana never learnt to deal with "eulogy" because she did not have a strict mother to reign her in. The press played their part by always exaggerating her successes and minimizing those of the rest of the royal family. You would have to be a saint not to begin to resent that, especially if the recipient of the adulation would have been nothing without you.

I can see the press trying to do the same with William and Kate but Kate has the benefit of a very involved mum and a very good education. Therefore she can tell the difference between exaggerated eulogy and her own role within an old institution.  Diana was very poorly served by her upbringing and it showed later in life. A classic case in point is where she imagined that because she was popular in the tabloids, she could solve the Irish question by "knocking heads together". That was just delusional and showed that the poor woman did not know how to tell the difference between flattery and fact. Nevertheless she was improving. The shy and ignorant girl of the 1980s had become a polished celebrity in the 1990s. The old ghosts and inadequacies were there but she was getting better by the day. Had her life been longer, she might even have gotten a new professional calling after the divorce.
"In the past, people were born royal. Nowadays, royalty comes from what you do"...Gianni Versace

Curryong

#101
^ I love the way that you put Princess Pushy as an example of a  lecturer on Diana's failings! If ever a minor Royal had illusions about herself and loved publicity it's that woman! A woman obsessed with her ancestry, back to Charlemagne you know, and practically purrs when she got interviewed about her books (plagiarism, anyone!) Didn't the Queen say laughingly of Princess Michael 'She's too grand for us!' Prss Michael was hardly the team player that she accused Diana of not being in her heyday. In fact IMO Prss Michael loved and loves any limelight she got/gets.

Princess Pushy never had one scrap of the love bestowed on Diana by the British public, and, as for Kate, the Press were hoping for the good old days back with a Diana Mark2. Unfortunately for them Kate is not elegant, not warm with others, is wooden on engagements and is certainly not charismatic.

What's more, I believe Carole was ambitious for her daughter to marry William, a future King, and did her utmost to for nearly a decade make it happen. I certainly don't think Carole is priming her daughter to be a team player among the RF. I think she enjoys all the publicity Kate receives.It's William who keeps his wife firmly in place and doesn't want to be outshone, IMO.

Kate has the advantage at the moment of being the sole female among the senior ranks of the BRF that is under forty. If/when Harry marries she might have to look to her laurels, have to actually say something in speeches beside platitudes and inanities, have to learn to deliver speeches in a natural manner, make smalltalk beyond what toys George likes, and might have a sister in law who has the tabloids talking about something other than hats and coats and hair. I'm looking forward to it!

amabel

Quote from: royalanthropologist on March 19, 2017, 10:22:17 AM
Interesting take @amabel. I tend to think Diana had a good brain (whatever that means) but it was not fully exploited by a disciplined formal education and thorough training.have to be a saint not to begin to resent that, especially if the recipient of the adulation would have been nothing without you.

I can see the press trying to do the same with William and Kate but Kate has the benefit of a very involved mum and a very good education. Therefore she can tell the difference between exaggerated eulogy and her own role within an old institution.  Diana was very poorly served by her upbringing and it showed later in life. A classic case in point is where she imagined that because she was popular in the tabloids, she could solve the Irish question by "
I don't think that the press gives kate all that much adulation, nothing like what there was for Diana.  She doesn't have the magic factor that Di had, nor are the press as deferential now.
I don't think that Di had  "a good brain", exactly.  I think she ahd normal intelligence, but POSSIBLY, I'm not sure, on the "lower average" side of normal.  ANd because she wasn't pushed at school by her parents or teachers, and was let "sit in class and dream" I think, she didn't develop her brain at all.  So she came to adulthood with very little mental furniture and then she found ti hard to learn even the not very intellectually demanding stuff that the royal staf felt she should know, to do her job as Princess.  and I think that she was embarrassed by her lack of knowledge and refused to read up things because she (perhaps_) felt she could do without it, or because she didn't want the lack of knowledge to be exposed and commented on.
I don't really think her mother or father were much good as parents, but I think that she was let do as she chose a bit too much because botht parents were selfish.   Frances SK AND JOhnny Spencer both enjoyed the Publicity they got as parents of the beloved Princess Diana, and didn't really see that they had let her grow up without much discipline or education.
I think that luckly Diana was quick witted, and realised that the job was more interesting if she DID learn ab it more about the charities etc that she worked with, but she still tended to require taking in the info in "bite sized pieces". She didn't have the ability or wish to learn in depth.  and she was again luckily self disicplined up to a point, in that she DID do her paperwork promptly, turned up to her engagements on time, had a knack of talking to people and good manners.
but I agree that the Press did exaggerate her smallest achievements and made her a bit exalted in her belief that she had "special powers"...
Re Kate I dotn think she gets that sort of adulation and she's absorbed in her family and her own life, so she's not as prone to read the papers and believe her own publicity...


sandy

#103
I think Dianas Dad was joyous over his daughter marrying the Prince of Wales. Frances was a bit more wary-she cooperated with a biographer and gave her recollections. She was not that thrilled with Charles, but kept her misgivings to herself because she said it was 'time' Diana got married.

Diana was not 'below' any level. the young woman was raised to marry well. I think given her schooling, she did remarkably well. She went right into royal duties.

I don't think William and Kate are exactly geniuses. she majored in art history not rocket science and did not really get out on her own and was supported by her parents who could afford to do this so she would be on call for Prince WIlliam. William's emotional intelligence IMO is lacking, he does think himself above criticism since he is surrounded by sycophants and flatterers and I think he has the arrogance his father has.

Quote from: royalanthropologist on March 19, 2017, 10:22:17 AM
Interesting take @amabel. I tend to think Diana had a good brain (whatever that means) but it was not fully exploited by a disciplined formal education and thorough training. Princess Michael of Kent once did an interview in which she commented that Diana was a good person but her problems started when she began to believe her own publicity. Apparently Princess Michael surmised that Diana never learnt to deal with "eulogy" because she did not have a strict mother to reign her in. The press played their part by always exaggerating her successes and minimizing those of the rest of the royal family. You would have to be a saint not to begin to resent that, especially if the recipient of the adulation would have been nothing without you.

I can see the press trying to do the same with William and Kate but Kate has the benefit of a very involved mum and a very good education. Therefore she can tell the difference between exaggerated eulogy and her own role within an old institution.  Diana was very poorly served by her upbringing and it showed later in life. A classic case in point is where she imagined that because she was popular in the tabloids, she could solve the Irish question by "knocking heads together". That was just delusional and showed that the poor woman did not know how to tell the difference between flattery and fact. Nevertheless she was improving. The shy and ignorant girl of the 1980s had become a polished celebrity in the 1990s. The old ghosts and inadequacies were there but she was getting better by the day. Had her life been longer, she might even have gotten a new professional calling after the divorce.

Actually I think Kate;s mum was a bit too involved. She also supported Kate for years so Kate did nothing really on her own with just sporadic jobs. This is not a role model for young women today. Kate truly did not utilize her University degree.

Diana was not "ignorant."   Diana was popular in the tabs. Like other human beings, she could misread attitudes. Charles does that and he is supposedly "better" educated. Charles was always surrounded by flatterers and sycophants and listening to them caused him sometimes to be very wrong.

Kate does not have it "right" about her role. She does little and always had a poor work ethic.

amabel

how does the fact that she was popular with the tabloids mean she wasn't ignorant?  She certainly knew little about the world when she married Charles..

sandy

I think this is what Charles wanted in a bride. Someone with little knowledge of the outside world, someone not savvy, someone naive. But Diana caught on quickly after the wedding. I think Charles was taken by surprise.


Quote from: amabel on March 19, 2017, 09:41:43 AM
Quote from: sandy on March 18, 2017, 02:21:14 PM
Diana was a natural in meeting and greeting people on appearances. I don't consider Charles intelligent and he did not have the greatest grades. Diana used the term "thick as a plank" to a little girl trying to put her at ease. She did not mean she REALLY was. That should not be held against her considering the way she used the term. Diana was not "ignorant" nor "arrogant." People catch on when public figures are "arrogant." Diana was not "arrogant" nor ever had that charge leveled against her.
well if you don't think Charles is intelligent, I don't see how you can think Diana was, when she didn't even pass the basis school exams.
and yes people did think that Diana was arrogant.  They might not have literally used that word but many people thought that she had come to think of herself as more speicail than the rest of the RF because she was popular.

Charles was never the sharpest knife in the drawer. He had mentors and was not savvy enough to distinguish between good and bad advice. He wanted even to have the shady business man Armand Hammer as godfather to WIlliam until Diana talked him out of it. I find it amazing considering Diana's education that she did so well. She was a natural in her role. Who are the "many people." Her severest critics Junor and Seward never referred to Diana as "arrogant."  In a way though all royals have "attitudes" about who they are. People tended to relate to royals like the Queen Mum and Diana more than other royals.

royalanthropologist

#106
But Charles does not need to be "sharpest tool in the drawer" @sandy. He's got plenty of achievements to show for his education. First Prince of Wales with a degree, Londoner of the Decade for raising immense amounts of money for his charity, the remarkable work of the Prince's Trust, making the Duchy of Cornwall a very profitable business venture and taking it out of the red. Those are really, really astounding achievements for anyone. I think that even Diana herself would have admitted that Charles was much more intellectual than her, certainly a much better administrator. She was good with emotional intelligence and connecting with people but not basic administration or even academics.

Double post auto-merged: March 19, 2017, 02:22:20 PM


@Curryong. "Princess Pushy" was one of the very few remaining friends Diana had in the royal family when it all fell to pieces. Princess Margaret used to be a fan but became her mortal enemy after panorama. I happen to think that Princess Pushy can comment on someone she knew for quite some time. Her interview is not particularly offensive. It just gives another perspective on Diana's character from an insider viewpoint. Even a cat may look at a King.
"In the past, people were born royal. Nowadays, royalty comes from what you do"...Gianni Versace

amabel

I beleive that Marie Christine did behave kindly to Diana after the divorce, which is more than most of them did.  She said that Diana must not feel she had to curtsy to her, and I think that she probably had a point in what she said.  She's not the first person to say that Diana was foolish in beleivng that she was something wonderful, because the tabloids over praised her.

Trudie

The topic here is how did Diana do in school not was she impressed with her own press. Diana like many in our generation myself included was perhaps not challenged enough in school. In some subjects the work wasn't challenging enough and I had average grades. I did have one teacher most students dreaded however and she challenged me in her class to the tune of all A's. Diana was sent to a girls boarding school where it seemed the curriculum was not geared to preparing young women for academics and careers but homemaking, the arts and being interesting enough to attract a husband. Diana was intelligent enough perhaps more than people gave her credit for to speak and be well received by world leaders, taking on controversial causes AIDS, Leprosy with Mother Teresa, before it was fashionable and the ignorance displayed by highly educated people that such diseases were contagious.



sandy

#109
Quote from: royalanthropologist on March 19, 2017, 02:20:06 PM
But Charles does not need to be "sharpest tool in the drawer" @sandy. He's got plenty of achievements to show for his education. First Prince of Wales with a degree, Londoner of the Decade for raising immense amounts of money for his charity, the remarkable work of the Prince's Trust, making the Duchy of Cornwall a very profitable business venture and taking it out of the red. Those are really, really astounding achievements for anyone. I think that even Diana herself would have admitted that Charles was much more intellectual than her, certainly a much better administrator. She was good with emotional intelligence and connecting with people but not basic administration or even academics.

Double post auto-merged: March 19, 2017, 02:22:20 PM


@Curryong. "Princess Pushy" was one of the very few remaining friends Diana had in the royal family when it all fell to pieces. Princess Margaret used to be a fan but became her mortal enemy after panorama. I happen to think that Princess Pushy can comment on someone she knew for quite some time. Her interview is not particularly offensive. It just gives another perspective on Diana's character from an insider viewpoint. Even a cat may look at a King.

Consider though the time period. Back when Prince Edward was Prince of Wales he was not expected to attend public universities. He had tutors who arguably gave him a better education than if he went to university. Had Charles lived during that time period, he too would have had tutors. And had Edward been born in 1948 he would have gone to University. Different times. It was not as if Charles was a "genius," he got so so grades.

I would not use the word "intellectual" for Charles. That would be a slap at real intellectuals.  Charles IMO is no rocket scientist. Many of his classmates did superior work in school. He got where he is today by being born first to the heiress presumptive. He lucked out that way.

I don't think CHarles was wise for a so-called "intellectual"  he relied on mentors some of which did not have the best reputation.

Double post auto-merged: March 19, 2017, 09:32:34 PM


Quote from: amabel on March 19, 2017, 03:46:29 PM
I beleive that Marie Christine did behave kindly to Diana after the divorce, which is more than most of them did.  She said that Diana must not feel she had to curtsy to her, and I think that she probably had a point in what she said.  She's not the first person to say that Diana was foolish in beleivng that she was something wonderful, because the tabloids over praised her.

NObody in the RF ever called Diana "foolish" to the media. Charles' Mountbatten cousins are the ones who trash Diana. And they are not RF members. Diana did not buy into the PR, she worked--if she really believed it, she would not have gone out of her way to work with her charities and do royal work.

TLLK

Quote from: Trudie on March 19, 2017, 05:33:05 PM
The topic here is how did Diana do in school not was she impressed with her own press. Diana like many in our generation myself included was perhaps not challenged enough in school. In some subjects the work wasn't challenging enough and I had average grades. I did have one teacher most students dreaded however and she challenged me in her class to the tune of all A's. Diana was sent to a girls boarding school where it seemed the curriculum was not geared to preparing young women for academics and careers but homemaking, the arts and being interesting enough to attract a husband. Diana was intelligent enough perhaps more than people gave her credit for to speak and be well received by world leaders, taking on controversial causes AIDS, Leprosy with Mother Teresa, before it was fashionable and the ignorance displayed by highly educated people that such diseases were contagious.
Thank you for sharing your experiences @Trudie. I'm so pleased that girls are being challenged today with STEM (science, technology, engineering and math) courses in greater numbers than ever.

royalanthropologist

@Trudie has given me important insights into the education of the girl child in those times. That is why I say that Diana was not without intelligence. Had she been an airhead, the people she was interacting with would have found her out very quickly. This was a woman who was good enough to handle meetings at the highest level without embarrassing the queen.
"In the past, people were born royal. Nowadays, royalty comes from what you do"...Gianni Versace

amabel

Quote from: royalanthropologist on March 20, 2017, 02:29:54 PM
@Trudie has given me important insights into the education of the girl child in those times. That is why I say that Diana was not without intelligence. Had she been an airhead, the people she was interacting with would have found her out very quickly. This was a woman who was good enough to handle meetings at the highest level without embarrassing the queen.
waht sort of "meetings at the highest level" did she attend? Hardly a cabinet briefing or an academic seminar.  Many people DID believe she was an airhead and that she knew very little, and that she got by on her looks and charm and being able to make a few smart sounding remarks.
And  like most royals she was wildly over praised by various people.

sandy

People who disliked her thought she was an airhead. They did not like her so they thought the worst of her. That said, Junor or Seward her severest critics did not call her an airhead.  I would not say "many" people thought so. That is your take on it. Many people did not think her an airhead. Diana met the Sadats on her honeymoon. They never put her down. Mother Teresa got along with Diana and did not think her "stupid." I don't get the put downs of Diana quite frankly even saying 'many' thought she was an airhead.

TLLK

Quote from: royalanthropologist on March 20, 2017, 02:29:54 PM
@Trudie has given me important insights into the education of the girl child in those times. That is why I say that Diana was not without intelligence. Had she been an airhead, the people she was interacting with would have found her out very quickly. This was a woman who was good enough to handle meetings at the highest level without embarrassing the queen.
In regards to meetings  were you thinking of overseas goodwill tours and incoming state visits? In the UK only the monarch would be present to meet with the leader(s) of the government to discuss policies and the state of affairs in the country.

Curryong

Much as I am a fan of Diana's I do believe that she was much shyer early in the marriage and less able to talk on serious subjects than she was later, and an anocdote from her honeymoon on Britannia illustrates this. She and Charles met the Egyptian leader at the time, (I think it was President Sadat) and his wife. She attempted smalltalk with them but all that came out was repeated praise of the fruit, mangoes, they had eaten! Later on, after Diana had travelled more, involved herself in charities and seen more places, she became much more accomplished at smalltalk and discussion on serious topics.

TLLK

@Curryong-I agree. Also President and Mrs. Sadat would have taken into consideration that she was still a newlywed who had entered into royal life so they would have steered the conversation to light topics ie: fruit at that time.

Hard to think that he would be assassinated only a few months later. :(

sandy

Quote from: Curryong on March 20, 2017, 09:14:29 PM
Much as I am a fan of Diana's I do believe that she was much shyer early in the marriage and less able to talk on serious subjects than she was later, and an anocdote from her honeymoon on Britannia illustrates this. She and Charles met the Egyptian leader at the time, (I think it was President Sadat) and his wife. She attempted smalltalk with them but all that came out was repeated praise of the fruit, mangoes, they had eaten! Later on, after Diana had travelled more, involved herself in charities and seen more places, she became much more accomplished at smalltalk and discussion on serious topics.

Diana was not going to expound on foreign policy. She like other royals do "small talk." She was only married a short time as well.

Trudie

Quote from: amabel on March 20, 2017, 07:36:14 PM
Quote from: royalanthropologist on March 20, 2017, 02:29:54 PM
@Trudie has given me important insights into the education of the girl child in those times. That is why I say that Diana was not without intelligence. Had she been an airhead, the people she was interacting with would have found her out very quickly. This was a woman who was good enough to handle meetings at the highest level without embarrassing the queen.
waht sort of "meetings at the highest level" did she attend? Hardly a cabinet briefing or an academic seminar.  Many people DID believe she was an airhead and that she knew very little, and that she got by on her looks and charm and being able to make a few smart sounding remarks.
And  like most royals she was wildly over praised by various people.

Diana while not attending cabinet meetings was well received by leaders. Nelson Mendela met with her shortly before her death, The Mitterrand's of France thought highly of her and if she was the airhead you and what you believe were many why would the Queen have chosen her to represent her abroad instead of asking Anne or one of her cousins?. Diana was well received by leaders in their chosen fields of which she raised charitable funds. Diana was no candidate for a membership in Mensa but neither is Charles. Let me ask you even if this is going off topic a bit The Queen lacked in education as well would you call her an airhead? IMO The Queen had looks and charm as well and she took the Throne at 25 and has reigned for 65 years.



amabel

Quote from: Curryong on March 20, 2017, 09:14:29 PM
Much as I am a fan of Diana's I do believe that she was much shyer early in the marriage and less able to talk on serious subjects than she was later, and an anocdote from her honeymoon on Britannia illustrates this. She and Charles met the Egyptian leader at the time, (I think it was President Sadat) and his wife. She attempted smalltalk with them but all that came out was repeated praise of the fruit, mangoes, they had eaten! Later on, after Diana had travelled more, involved herself in charities and seen more places, she became much more accomplished at smalltalk and discussion on serious topics.
I think she was extremely ill informed in the first few years... but as I've said, she did realise as she grew older that if she learned more about her charities, the job was more interesting. in the early years I think she was restistant to learning, but later on she did learn in her own way... and she could also  count on her aides to brief her what to say.

amabel

Quote from: sandy on March 20, 2017, 07:40:29 PM
People who disliked her thought she was an airhead. They did not like her so they thought the worst of her. That said, Junor or Seward her severest critics did not call her an airhead.  I would not say "many" people thought so. That is your take on it. Many people did not think her an airhead. Diana met the Sadats on her honeymoon. They never put her down. Mother Teresa got along with Diana and did not think her "stupid." I don't get the put downs of Diana quite frankly even saying 'many' thought she was an airhead.
many people did.  Even at her most popular, if you read the papers in the 80s you'd see  there were lots of journalists who thought she was pretty and charming but had not got much brains. It doesn't matter whether the Sadats thogut her stupid or Mother Teresa, the fact is that many people DID think she was stupid.  It is hardly "thinking the worst of her", to say that she wasn't very clever, anyway.  She might not be very clever, and still do her job well and have a good heart..which she did have.
It is not "putting someone down" if you genuinely think that they are not vry clever, to say that theyre' not clever. 

sandy

I don't think a journalists represent "many."  "Many people" may have found her clever and bright. I don't know how you can say "many" people thought she was stupid is figured without any definitive surveys or anything. Diana was eager to learn and unlike her University educated son had much better public speaking skills (she went in for self improvement and voice lessons). There are College and High School Drop outs who achieved outstanding success especially in the computer industry who put those who got the degree to shame. Charles had so so grades at University and relied on mentors. I don't think the royals are exactly all Einsteins in any case.

Trudie

In the beginning of her royal life the media and for the most part the palace tried to portray Diana as an airhead whose only interest was babies and clothes. After providing the heirs and doing tours and charity work Diana proved she was not an air head who as she grew in confidence on the world stage showed the world she was a woman with intelligence who could give informed speeches on the cause she was working on. The palace more or less encouraged the media to show Charles as the intellect however he shied away from Aids or any other controversial subjects.



TLLK

#123
^^^Thank you for sharing that @Trudie. I would like to add that I don't think that Diana's self esteem was helped either by her family's attitude toward her schooling. Her siblings mocked her school performance and her parents made it clear that their son and heir would be the one who would be attending university rather than their daughters. While I do understand that their views on higher education for women was not uncommon for their class, it is a shame that it was communicated to their youngest daughter in that manner.

Now regarding the education of their sons, Diana stated in the Morton tapes that she chose all of the schools. Charles who was clearly not the most supportive of his wife's intellectual abilities, must have had some confidence in her decision making when it came to selecting the boys' schools. As far as I can tell, the brothers were prepared each step in their education. When Harry was diagnosed with his learning disability he was provided with assistance that he required and later was not forced into continuing his classroom education.  Even after her death, Charles did not deviate from what appears to be Diana's suggestions for her children when it came to their schooling.

amabel

#124
Quote from: TLLK on June 16, 2017, 08:30:09 PM
^^^Thank you for sharing that @Trudie. I would like to add that I don't think that Diana's self esteem was helped either by her family's attitude toward her schooling. Her siblings mocked her school performance and her parents made it clear that their son and heir would be the one who would be attending university rather than their daughters. While I do understand that their views on higher education for women was not uncommon for their class, it is a shame that it was communicated to their youngest daughter in that manner.

Now regarding the education of their sons, Diana stated in the Morton tapes that she chose all of the schools. Charles who was clearly not the most supportive of his wife's intellectual abilities, must have had some confidence in her decision making when it came to selecting the
what was communicated to Diana?  She was never going to attned university not because of her sex and class but because she could not have gotten in.
as for the boys, DIana picked Eton because her family had usualy gone there, it was near London, and Charles gave way on ti because he had hated Gordonston and let her have her way.. I dotn believe she was considering "what was the best education" for the boys, it was more to do with not wanting them miles away In Scotland, and the social kudos of being at Eton or Harrow.

Double post auto-merged: June 16, 2017, 09:14:21 PM


Quote from: sandy on June 16, 2017, 12:24:23 PM
I don't think a journalists represent "many."  "Many people" may have found her clever and bright. I don't know how you can say "many" people thought she was stupid is figured without any definitive surveys or anything. Diana was eager to learn and unlike her University educated son had much better public speaking skills (she went in for self improvement and voice lessons). There are College and High School Drop outs who achieved outstanding success especially in the computer industry who put those who got the degree to shame. Charles had so so grades at University and relied on mentors. I don't think the royals are exactly all Einsteins in any case.
frankly Sandy I worked in a large office at the time of the last few years of Di's marriage and most people there thought she was not clever.  Some people may have thoguth she was bright, plenty of others didn't.  it has nothing to do with wheter "other royals" are "Einsteins".. or whatever.  The facts are that Diana got no O levels and her sisters who were also reared for "marriage and not university" got several In Sarah's case. I think she got 9.