Role of the Spencer family in preparing Diana for marriage?

Started by Duch_Luver_4ever, May 16, 2016, 02:33:17 AM

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Duch_Luver_4ever

Theres two questions that have been hard to find an answer for about the romance and engagement.

One: With the way that upper class families gossip, and things like the Private Eye article about Camilla going with Charles to the Zimbawbe independence festivities, did the Spencer family know about Charles attachment to Camilla before Diana started dating Charles? With Sarah dating Charles first, youd think she'd have asked about former/current girlfriends, did Sarah know and being sore over losing Charles, keep quiet about it, I honestly dont know? Of course Diana figured it out as the romance carried along, but it seems she had to learn it the hard way.

Two: It seemed that Diana had a very modern, middle class attitude to marriage( not a criticism) that her husband should love and be faithful to her. What did her family, esp the females (Her mom, grandmother, older sisters) teach her about how upper class marriages work?

It seems that given her family background, theyd have expected what Charles did to happen, it seems like they didnt bother to teach her about that. Her actions seem to stem from that she was cheated on, not that it was Camilla, specifically, so she obviously had expectations of the marriage going differently than it did, and most of the shock was that the infidelity happened at all.

I often wonder, did the family not bother about dynastic alliances and just figured Diana would marry a banker or some Eton grad, or did they figure, given her strong worry to not get divorced, the less she knew before the marriage the better, and left it up to her to figure it out? Maybe where she was the youngest girl, they figured Sarah and Jane would do the "heavy lifting" in terms of marrying well, and Dianas schooling on that was an afterthought.

What do you all think? It seems to me if she'd be aware of this before the romance, it may have gone a lot better, or she'd have chosen to not have it at all, either way a better outcome for her.
"No other member of the Royal Family mattered that year, or I think for the next 17 years, it was just her." Arthur Edwards, The Sun Photographer, talking about Diana's impact.

LouisFerdinand

Lady Jane Fellowes was the sister who had been married the longest when Diana became engaged. Jane married in 1978. Would she not have had good advice for Diana?


Duch_Luver_4ever

Quote from: LouisFerdinand on June 01, 2016, 12:21:43 AM
Lady Jane Fellowes was the sister who had been married the longest when Diana became engaged. Jane married in 1978. Would she not have had good advice for Diana?

Hey @LouisFerdinand thanks for giving this thread some love, appreciate it. You would think that Jane would have advised her on how upper class marriages would have worked. With Sarah, there was some sibling rivalry, shes been claimed to have said on or near the wedding day( I think it was at the wedding rehearsal) when in St. Pauls something like "I thought all this would have been mine", so It wouldnt surprise me if she didnt rush to give her the best advice then. But Jane was the "steady" one( and looks the most like Diana  :brightside:), and married a prominent man( Robert Fellows was the Queens Secretary, I believe) imagine the stress on her during the Wales war getting it from both sides.

But the curious thing that digs at me, is when they were growing up, say 13-18ish yrs old, wouldnt they would have learned from either older friends, moms, aunts, grand mothers, etc. the ins and out of what to expect when married to a titled man. Back then, I know women were expected to suffer the husbands infidelity in relative silence, but I always figured they knew about it, and would have prepared their female relations when they got close to marrying age to expect it.

One of the things I always found curious about the whole setup, and please dont read into this people, that im for one second supporting C&C, is that she seemed so surprised that it happened, and blindsided by it. It just seems so odd that she wouldnt have known thats what a royal man would do.

She said in the morton tapes she enjoyed history, tudors and stuarts, etc. plus the enormous wealth of Spencer history at her fingertips at Althorp and family members, it just seems that her reaction to the whole C&C thing was something a commoner would have had, not someone who was a member of such a prominent family.

It just seems that so much of the damage she suffered from it was due to that aspect of it, that she didnt see it coming. It just seems she should have known what was coming and had a plan to find a long term extramarital suitor of her own, and settle in for a life of luxury, instead of the tremendous heartache she suffered.

I love the Spencer family, but I cant help thinking that someone, somewhere, sometime in that family tremendously let this wonderful lady down by not forearming her with that knowledge, and it seems to me at least, a very interesting area not covered in the books.



"No other member of the Royal Family mattered that year, or I think for the next 17 years, it was just her." Arthur Edwards, The Sun Photographer, talking about Diana's impact.

sandy

Diana probably thought Charles an honorable, nice guy. She was not "machine like" in approaching the marriage, she loved the man and thought he loved her back. She naturally expected he'd have exes but probably believed he would "forsake all others." Not every royal cheated. I think the onus is on Charles who knew exactly how he was approaching the marriage but did not share it with his fiancee. Charles did get turned down by other women and he felt he wasn't getting any younger which kept him from telling Diana his true feelings. But that still does not excuse the dishonesty.

Trudie

To be fair here I can see how Diana was blindsided Georges V and VI for faithful to their wives and from all accounts so were the children of George V given the recent history I' sure Diana thought Charles would be the same. I blame her Grandmother Lady Fermoy for not helping her knowing all the ins and outs of what exactly went on at court. In true fashion though she thought more of the RF then her own and becoming related via Diana's marriage satisfied her quest for social position as her husband was only a baron.



Duch_Luver_4ever

I agree @Trudie most of the blame should go to Lady Fermoy, given her access to the RF and her experience. While she did tell Diana that she might not fit into their way of thinking, it was too vauge advice to give a young girl in love, as Diana was. I find it hard to believe that Fermoy did not know about Camilla before the romance of C&D started.

I didnt know about George V, I figured George VI was faithful, its a shame that Charles got in his head that being PoW got him a free pass to run around. :thumbsdown: An interesting doc on youtube was about Charles mistresses, mostly about CPB, and I found it interesting one of the regular group of authors you see, mentions the "rules" of aristocratic marriages, and you can see almost to a T, the behaviors of Charles matching it (having affairs with a married woman so she had more to lose, sticking around till the heir is born, and then resume fooling around, etc).

I also wonder where Frances was in terms of giving advice to her, I know she advised her not to marry him just for his position, to see the man behind it, but that seems like vague advice for a young girl.

It just seems a shame that everyone seemed to know the "rules" of the game except Diana. While she was younger than C&C, her family, friends, etc. should have advised her better before it got to the point it was too late to back out. I think the Settleton tapes are telling in which she talks about people pulling and pushing her to the altar. She doesnt say it, but you get the impression that she felt her family pushed her to the alter without all the facts.

I also agree @sandy she obviously was not cold and calculating in the marriage, as her actions show her as someone who wanted to keep the marriage together and was trying to get help from a family not interested in helping her. Of course the onus was on Charles, and people that are Camilla fans forget that was annoys people isnt just the cheating but the manuvering a young girl into a sham marriage.

I just find is sad that no one prepared Diana for that kind of marriage, at least then she could have decided for herself if she wanted to stay in it or not, and go in with eyes open, rather than that horrible experience she had in finding out much too late what she got  herself into. But I hope ppl dont misunderstand, in no way do I condone what happened to her, I never wanted her to have a sad day in her life, so it makes me mad that her friends and family led her to "the slaughter" as she described it.
"No other member of the Royal Family mattered that year, or I think for the next 17 years, it was just her." Arthur Edwards, The Sun Photographer, talking about Diana's impact.

sandy

Actually Frances refrained from giving Diana advice.  She has an authorized biography called "Frances" and she had given "her side" to her biographer. She said she deliberately stayed out of any interference or advice saying it was 'time' for Diana to get married. Tina Brown claimed Frances talked about the title vs person to Diana, from hearsay "evidence". This came directly from Frances that she did not interfere even after the "Whatever in love means" comment by Charles. Her father also did nothing of any help he just went into crowds and soaked up the accolades of being father of the future bride, soon after the engagement was announced.  Diana also was 12 years younger than Charles and did not travel in his circles until he started dating her. Sarah allegedly was not concerned about Camilla but rather Kanga who was Charles mistress while Camilla was having children with APB. Fermoy was avid to have one of her granddaughters marry into the royal family, which is why she testified against her own daughter, so the granddaughters would live in a home within close proximity to Sandringham

Duch_Luver_4ever

Thanks for the info @sandy thats horrible that Frances didnt guide her daughter more. I find it odd that they gave her such a hard time about moving to London until she was "old enough" but were in such a hurry to have her married off. It almost seems like Frances was proud that she didnt give her any advice, esp given how her first marriage turned out, her advice  could have been helpful, not just for this romance, but id have thought in general, say at age 16, shed have sat her down and let her know whats what.

I always figured Johnnie didnt say anything, im guessing he was of the age where he felt fathers didnt discuss such things with their daughter, and yes, he sure got to enjoy being the father of the bride without protecting her.

Interesting about Kanga, she and Camilla had a pitched battle in the 70s when each would get pregnant, the other would move closer to Charles, which im sure Sarah picked up on back when she was seeing Charles.

Sad it seems they just left her to sink or swim on her own...

"No other member of the Royal Family mattered that year, or I think for the next 17 years, it was just her." Arthur Edwards, The Sun Photographer, talking about Diana's impact.

LouisFerdinand

Would Frances have given advice in general about how a titled lady is to run a household? Or would Diana have been instructed on this subject when she attended boarding school?


sandy

Diana did learn to run a household. Unfortunately, that was not enough to tide her over in the difficult marriage she was in

Duch_Luver_4ever

Im thinking more along the lines of the husband in those types of marriages frequently taking a mistress, and how to deal with that, if she wanted how to pick one herself, etc. rather than running a household such as domestic stuff like cooking, running staff, etc. those skills could be learned, but the other stuff is usually taught by people close to them family or friends well before marriage.

"No other member of the Royal Family mattered that year, or I think for the next 17 years, it was just her." Arthur Edwards, The Sun Photographer, talking about Diana's impact.

Minerva

Lady Diana Spencer attended a Swiss finishing school - Institut Alpin Videmanette - as was the trend for sloanes at the time to add  'polish'.  I think most of what we would call an 'induction' into the ways of the Royals - or the Firm as LDS referred to them - would have been by way of Lady Fermoy. Acid Raine wouldn't have been her first port of call for advice that's for sure.

As for rumours about Charles and Camilla I personally don't believe Diana clicked on until the eve of the wedding when the much perpetuated rumour of 'Chin up Old Duch your face is already on the tea towels' came about. 

Diana played witness to the painful process of failed, abusive marriages growing up, two in fact. I would say that asking for faithfulness in the Upper most upper class home in the land was probably too much to ask but being nineteen years old on engagement wasn't too much to ask.
In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. -George Orwell

live your truth there is nothing to fear, you live your fear you fear life.

Death is not a sport, nor is hunting. ... Ahimsa

sandy

Quote from: Duch_Luver_4ever on June 02, 2016, 06:26:42 AM
Im thinking more along the lines of the husband in those types of marriages frequently taking a mistress, and how to deal with that, if she wanted how to pick one herself, etc. rather than running a household such as domestic stuff like cooking, running staff, etc. those skills could be learned, but the other stuff is usually taught by people close to them family or friends well before marriage.



The thing is no matter how supposedly traditional it is to keep mistresses, it's still wrong and not everyone does it. What Diana should have been told by Charles before he proposed is everything he expected of her, including his having a special friend. He clumsily appeared to introduce Diana to Camilla by presenting her as  his safe married friend. A non threatening dowdy looking woman with a husband and two small children. But he did not tell her the truth about how he perceived Camilla. It was not up to the Spencers but up to Charles. And he was dishonest with her from the get go.

Duch_Luver_4ever

Quote from: sandy on June 02, 2016, 02:09:38 PM
Quote from: Duch_Luver_4ever on June 02, 2016, 06:26:42 AM


The thing is no matter how supposedly traditional it is to keep mistresses, it's still wrong and not everyone does it. What Diana should have been told by Charles before he proposed is everything he expected of her, including his having a special friend. He clumsily appeared to introduce Diana to Camilla by presenting her as  his safe married friend. A non threatening dowdy looking woman with a husband and two small children. But he did not tell her the truth about how he perceived Camilla. It was not up to the Spencers but up to Charles. And he was dishonest with her from the get go.

Hey @sandy, I doubt youd find anyone except Eri who would disagree with the points you make, we all feel that way about the shabby way Charles hoodwinked Diana.

However, from a historical perspective, it is interesting that a woman from the county set seemed to understand how the aristocracy handled their marriages more than someone from one of the most prestigious families in England. Now maybe Camilla, being removed from her desired station in the aristocracy, had to be pay more attention to their ways, also her generation was the last to do things like "coming out" and presented, etc. when Diana was 18 that kind of stuff fell out of favor, so maybe her close family and friends decided it wasnt as important to guide her through what a marriage might entail, but given her age, she needed help and didnt get it.

I do think it was up to her family and friends to have prepared her better for marriage pitfalls, that doesnt take C&C off the hook by any means. To use an example, C&C stole the car, but her friends and family didnt tell her that could happen and show her the lock, so to speak.

It often goes unsaid in the docs when they talk about C&D being an ideal match on paper, but one of the aspects was they figured she would know Charles could stray, and to be prepared for it, and could have been happier than what happened to her. Thats my main concern, is that the poor girl was blindsided, when ppl should have opened her eyes for her, considering her age and experience with men, it wouldnt have been information shed have experienced first hand, so thats where the family and friends come in.

Quote from: Minerva on June 02, 2016, 01:49:32 PM
Lady Diana Spencer attended a Swiss finishing school - Institut Alpin Videmanette - as was the trend for sloanes at the time to add  'polish'.  I think most of what we would call an 'induction' into the ways of the Royals - or the Firm as LDS referred to them - would have been by way of Lady Fermoy. Acid Raine wouldn't have been her first port of call for advice that's for sure.

As for rumours about Charles and Camilla I personally don't believe Diana clicked on until the eve of the wedding when the much perpetuated rumour of 'Chin up Old Duch your face is already on the tea towels' came about. 

Diana played witness to the painful process of failed, abusive marriages growing up, two in fact. I would say that asking for faithfulness in the Upper most upper class home in the land was probably too much to ask but being nineteen years old on engagement wasn't too much to ask.

Hey @Minerva  The finishing school was more for  general conduct, cooking, french, etc. but Diana only liked the skiing and left early, so I doubt theyd have been much help. The one who could have helped her was Lady Fermoy, but she for example didnt prevent Diana from wearing the black strapless dress, now in hindsight it was good she didnt cause it turned around ppls view of her and started her glamourous look, but in terms of royal protocol, it was a no no.

In terms of her discovering Camilla during the engagement, theres debate, theres the F&G present, the invitation to lunch when she moved into Clarence House, the phone calls, and then yes, the crying when C went to austrailia and we all thought she was sad over missing him, that prompted the infamous "face on the tea towels".

It just seems odd to me, that when she was young she had pictures of charles, and presumably followed him in the news (just like I followed her when I was her age), and with the gossip in schools and among upper crust families, etc. that Charles roving eye would have been discovered well before the "tea towels got printed" I just find it so odd that of all the people that would have been in a perfect position to be aware of, and make plans to work around it, would have been her.

Obviously from her actions, that didnt happen, and it was a terrible thing that happened to her, but just like any bad thing that happens, afterwards, you want to figure out what happened, read the black box, so to speak.

I do hope that people understand and dont misread this examination as condoning what C&C & RF did, it was a horrible thing that severely damaged someone very special to me and the world.
"No other member of the Royal Family mattered that year, or I think for the next 17 years, it was just her." Arthur Edwards, The Sun Photographer, talking about Diana's impact.

sandy

It should be recalled though at at the time CHarles dated  and was pictured with only the "suitable" in the press. It was not the age of Internet and the comings of goings of Charles at Broadlands having weekends with the "non-suitable" girls were kept from the media, there was more protection then. If the back issues of newspapers and magazines are checked or archival material in the Internet, Charles was seen with ladies like Lady Jane Wellesley, Sabina Guiness, Sarah Spencer, Amanda KNatchbull, and Anna Wallace and a great fuss was made over if any of them would be the "one." Camilla was introduced as a "married friend" who vetted and approved possible wives for CHarles. The fact that she was a mistress was not generally known. Lady Diana who was 12 years younger was not part of Charles "set" until they dated. She met him while he was dating her sister and he was quoted as saying this was the time he first noticed her (when she was 16). Lady Diana would probably at first have accepted Camilla as the "safe" married friend and most likely actually tried to get her approval since it was known she "inspected" his girlfriends.  Diana probably thought she was "the one" and Charles chose her after dating other suitable ladies and he actually loved her.   Charles himself though IMO would have had to spell things out. If her father, mother or sisters or grandmother "warned her" she would probably have resented it because she trusted Charles at the time and thought he'd honor the marriage vows. The Spencers did not know exactly what Charles was thinking. I think in a case where CHarles really wanted to keep his mistress, Diana should have been give a pre-nup spelling out all that was expected of her as Charles wife, and I mean everything, Camilla and all. She could then have backed out and Charles may have found someone who would have welcomed the perks and glory of being a Princess of Wales and not expected love.

Duch_Luver_4ever

True, there wasnt the internet back then, and for the public, it was harder to find things out, there must have been gossip and talk among people of that social group. With Anne Wallace, there was the infamous blow up at the party where she told Charles, after spending the night with Camilla, talking and dancing,that no one treats her like that, not even him, then tore out of the place with one of the party hosts cars.

She was the girl right before Diana, then there was the Private Eye article about Camilla going with Charles to the Zimbawbe independence ceremony, shortly before the romance began. If ppl didnt have knowledge of things like this and others, all the books about C&C couldnt have ever been written, and while Royals could rely on a lot of discretion, ppl also like a bit of juicy gossip as well.

True as a teenager, Diana may have resented advice from family, also she could be headstrong as well, once she made a decision, she rarely would council dissenting opinion. Also she was besotted by him from an early age, before they first met, so she might have had a blind spot where it comes to him.

But what im after is more than just the specifics of the C&C, but that why she wouldnt have the knowledge of men in general having the potential to do what Charles did from that social strata, or given the stats on male infidelity, men in general.

I could understand her being upset over being cheated on based on what she brought to the table, as the most beautiful and adorable woman ever, IMO (she did allude to that a bit in that she said she was surprised she was "losing" to a woman with bad teeth, dandruff and a smoker) but it seemed her biggest objection was that she was cheated on at all, kind of like a referee calling a foul on the field of play.

I agree it all should have been put out on the table before the marriage, but the RF were probably worried Diana would not want to marry under those conditions, and it would have put them under big pressure, as the pool of eligible women were very small by then, and Charles was getting  too old, another fault of The Queen by not getting Charles to settle down by say, 25. So while not fair, I can see why they didnt fill her in.

But once the marriage was done, they should have brought it all out, and made sure Diana could have had the same arrangement if she wanted it as well. That was one of the sticking points was that his affair was smoothly run by palace and friends, and when she couldnt stop it, her own attempts did not go as smoothly, which frustrated her, and led to things like the morton book, etc. But at that time, they figured divorce was not an option for them, and that there was nothing Diana could do about it, which the RF learned was not true at their peril.

Rather than delve deeply into the C&C aspect of it, what has me curious is that she was not prepared by the ppl in her life charged with her welfare before the romance even happened, say 16-17yrs old, it could have been any man she married that would have done that, not just Charles and Camilla.

If they had made her aware what happened was a possibility, it wouldnt have thrown her for such a big loop & felt so powerless, and caused her so much suffering. She could have decided to leave a lot sooner if she wanted to, or been in a better headspace to plan a meaningful, long term lover to give her what Charles wouldnt. It would have been up to her, and shed have had some choices, all im trying to understand is why she was made to suffer much more that she should have, given what happened.

Goes without saying the C&C thing was totally wrong, but it makes me mad that she wasnt given all the tools she should have had to deal with the event.

It concerns me that she was left unprepared for what happened to her, and because of that it caused her years of mental anguish, that was unnecessary.
"No other member of the Royal Family mattered that year, or I think for the next 17 years, it was just her." Arthur Edwards, The Sun Photographer, talking about Diana's impact.

Minerva

Hey @Duch_Luver_4ever thanks for creating this thread it's bringing up some very interesting topics for discussion.

I read somewhere many years ago that Diana enjoyed reading romance novellas in her youth how much this coloured her view of being a Princess I'm not sure but if a young nineteen rather than a worldly nineteen whatever she heard from her family she may have swept under the proverbial rug so to speak. If she was dreaming big at the time I think no one or nothing could have steered her from her course, perhaps it was fated. That, and being a typical headstrong teenager perhaps she looked to her family and thought, like most children of divorced parents, that a divorce wouldn't happen to her and amor vincit omnia - love conquers all. So hypothetically even if she knew about Camilla perhaps she didn't realise the intensity of what was going on and didn't comprehend Camilla's role and also being in the first flush of young love with Charles which supplies rose tinted glasses was optimistic about her marriage. I think with the pre-wedding nervy jitters that she experienced when she wished to back out but couldn't that the glass in those rose tinted glasses had began to shatter and she was beginning to comprehend what she was getting herself into.



 
In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. -George Orwell

live your truth there is nothing to fear, you live your fear you fear life.

Death is not a sport, nor is hunting. ... Ahimsa

Duch_Luver_4ever

Youre welcome @Minerva its always been a question that tugged at me for years about the whole marriage breakdown. I could see if she had expressed more of a concern over it being Camilla specifically or someone else the he was running around with that she had personal issues with, or the fact that he was cheating, despite her being the most desirable woman in the world at that time, but for me the fascinating thing is that she was upset over the fact that she was cheated on at all, it could have been anyone, and I think shed have been just as upset (although im sure the fact that Camilla was there, every step of the courtship, added an extra twist of pain).

Yes she did read a lot of Barbara Cartland novels (who ironically became her step grandmother) and the divorce obviously shaped her view of marriage, but rather than steel her against future problems, sadly she seemed doomed to relive a lot of it. Im sure like most teenage girls she dreamed of a prince charming, the only problem for her, was given her family's position she actually had a good shot of marrying one, so it bothers me that her family didnt seem to prepare her for what that could involve, years before she started seeing Charles, as she could have married a number of titled men.

We on the forum spend a lot of time discussing the how of the whole C&C thing, and while it was a horrible thing, my contention is that if things had been different for Dianas upbringing or friends, it wouldnt have prevented it, but shed have weathered it much better, and either left earlier, or made her peace with it, and secured a life for herself. Given her teenage ideals it might not have been the best life, but it would have allowed her to comfortably live with the palace benefits and most likely see her children grow up and her grandchildren born.

The many books go back and forth about many things, I always find since were not able to interview the parties directly, its always helpful to look at their actions as a guide to their motives. Obviously from Dianas she was not the calculating, title hungry, climber that some would suggest. She felt that honesty in love was very important and it was living the lie that ate at her. While her romantic illlusions about a perfect marriage are sweet and one of the many things I love about her, I fear it set her up for heartache.

Also the actions of close family and friends make me wonder if at best there was indifference to how marriage would affect her, or at worst, she was kept in the dark as a pawn to be offered up to advance the family's fortunes at court after Sarah's romance with Charles fizzled out(I also wonder if she was truly careless, or did she learn something she didnt like about him and throw it on purpose). Remember she said at a young age she had to keep herself "tidy" for whatever came her way, when all her friends were sleeping with their boyfriends. I wonder how she actually came about to that deduction, I know she said on the settleton tapes she just knew it, intuitively, but i wonder.

"No other member of the Royal Family mattered that year, or I think for the next 17 years, it was just her." Arthur Edwards, The Sun Photographer, talking about Diana's impact.

sandy

Camilla had ambitions and undermined Diana every step of the way, and eventually played hostess at Highgrove in Diana's absence. It was not as if another woman came on the scene after the marriage. Camilla was a presence since Diana and Charles dated. Diana found out on her honeymoon with CHarles, she had no intention of leaving the scene as the special friend as CHarles wore her gifts of cufflinks.  The thing is it was not a situation where the Prince continued to sleep with her, he got more and more emotionally abusive with her, and put her down in front of others. Queen Alexandra looked the other way, but her husband did not leave her bed, nor did any of his mistresses put her down. Charles apparently allowed Camilla to put Diana down, she called DIana 'that ridiculous creature.'  Diana did not want to stay in a relationship where the husband showed contempt for her. Charles should have been the one to go for counseling before he thought of proposing to Diana. He felt he could have it all: the wife, the children and hte mistress. He should have prepared himself for marriage and if he felt he could not be faithful to his wife, not married her. Or find a woman who would be willing to sign a contract to marry and have his heirs and look the other way about Camilla, maybe even treat Camilla like a "sister wife." There might have been someone that Charles could have found to agree to this. I don't think it is the stuff of romance novels to expect a husband to be faithful.  It is a very reasonable request. Charles is not "above" common decency and morality no matter what titles he ahs

Double post auto-merged: June 04, 2016, 12:04:10 AM


Quote from: Minerva on June 03, 2016, 09:20:46 AM
Hey @Duch_Luver_4ever thanks for creating this thread it's bringing up some very interesting topics for discussion.

I read somewhere many years ago that Diana enjoyed reading romance novellas in her youth how much this coloured her view of being a Princess I'm not sure but if a young nineteen rather than a worldly nineteen whatever she heard from her family she may have swept under the proverbial rug so to speak. If she was dreaming big at the time I think no one or nothing could have steered her from her course, perhaps it was fated. That, and being a typical headstrong teenager perhaps she looked to her family and thought, like most children of divorced parents, that a divorce wouldn't happen to her and amor vincit omnia - love conquers all. So hypothetically even if she knew about Camilla perhaps she didn't realise the intensity of what was going on and didn't comprehend Camilla's role and also being in the first flush of young love with Charles which supplies rose tinted glasses was optimistic about her marriage. I think with the pre-wedding nervy jitters that she experienced when she wished to back out but couldn't that the glass in those rose tinted glasses had began to shatter and she was beginning to comprehend what she was getting herself into.



 

When Diana married Charles, it was said that divorce was discouraged for the Prince of Wales and his wife. And Diana had as it turned out a false sense of security. DIana also did not court CHarles, he courted her. He knew the score, but DIana did not.

Double post auto-merged: June 04, 2016, 12:08:27 AM


Quote from: Duch_Luver_4ever on June 03, 2016, 05:47:30 AM
True, there wasnt the internet back then, and for the public, it was harder to find things out, there must have been gossip and talk among people of that social group. With Anne Wallace, there was the infamous blow up at the party where she told Charles, after spending the night with Camilla, talking and dancing,that no one treats her like that, not even him, then tore out of the place with one of the party hosts cars.

She was the girl right before Diana, then there was the Private Eye article about Camilla going with Charles to the Zimbawbe independence ceremony, shortly before the romance began. If ppl didnt have knowledge of things like this and others, all the books about C&C couldnt have ever been written, and while Royals could rely on a lot of discretion, ppl also like a bit of juicy gossip as well.

True as a teenager, Diana may have resented advice from family, also she could be headstrong as well, once she made a decision, she rarely would council dissenting opinion. Also she was besotted by him from an early age, before they first met, so she might have had a blind spot where it comes to him.

But what im after is more than just the specifics of the C&C, but that why she wouldnt have the knowledge of men in general having the potential to do what Charles did from that social strata, or given the stats on male infidelity, men in general.

I could understand her being upset over being cheated on based on what she brought to the table, as the most beautiful and adorable woman ever, IMO (she did allude to that a bit in that she said she was surprised she was "losing" to a woman with bad teeth, dandruff and a smoker) but it seemed her biggest objection was that she was cheated on at all, kind of like a referee calling a foul on the field of play.

I agree it all should have been put out on the table before the marriage, but the RF were probably worried Diana would not want to marry under those conditions, and it would have put them under big pressure, as the pool of eligible women were very small by then, and Charles was getting  too old, another fault of The Queen by not getting Charles to settle down by say, 25. So while not fair, I can see why they didnt fill her in.

But once the marriage was done, they should have brought it all out, and made sure Diana could have had the same arrangement if she wanted it as well. That was one of the sticking points was that his affair was smoothly run by palace and friends, and when she couldnt stop it, her own attempts did not go as smoothly, which frustrated her, and led to things like the morton book, etc. But at that time, they figured divorce was not an option for them, and that there was nothing Diana could do about it, which the RF learned was not true at their peril.

Rather than delve deeply into the C&C aspect of it, what has me curious is that she was not prepared by the ppl in her life charged with her welfare before the romance even happened, say 16-17yrs old, it could have been any man she married that would have done that, not just Charles and Camilla.

If they had made her aware what happened was a possibility, it wouldnt have thrown her for such a big loop & felt so powerless, and caused her so much suffering. She could have decided to leave a lot sooner if she wanted to, or been in a better headspace to plan a meaningful, long term lover to give her what Charles wouldnt. It would have been up to her, and shed have had some choices, all im trying to understand is why she was made to suffer much more that she should have, given what happened.

Goes without saying the C&C thing was totally wrong, but it makes me mad that she wasnt given all the tools she should have had to deal with the event.

It concerns me that she was left unprepared for what happened to her, and because of that it caused her years of mental anguish, that was unnecessary.

If you look at the literature of Charles and DIana at the time (and also the early movies about their courtship), the story was told that Anna stormed out because CHarles spent more time with the QUeen Mother at the part than he did ANna. Anna was spun as a spoiled young woman who did not "appreciate" Charles attachment to his grandmother. But as it turned out later, it was discovered she was upset about Camilla. Actually, Camilla was still seen as the "safe" married friend who hosted (with her husband) CHarles and Diana and approved of Diana.

The Queen's favorite possible bride for her son was Lady Jane Wellesley. But it was said Lady Jane turned down Charles and was not interested in marrying him.

Diana should not have been expected to live with a man who preferred someone else.  Charles should have told her he wanted Diana to be civilized and accept Camilla as a "sister wife." The husbands of Camilla and Kanga were compliant about being civilized so I think he was surprised when Diana got upset.

LouisFerdinand

@Minerva, Who were all the romance authors that Diana liked to read their literature?


Duch_Luver_4ever

#20
@LouisFerdinand  She read Barbara Cartland novels when she was young by the cartload, esp once Cartlands daughter, Raine, married her father , Earl Spencer.

Double post auto-merged: June 04, 2016, 05:29:15 PM


Am finding another piece of the puzzle to add to the curiousness of it, am watching a doc on King George V  The Real King George V - 30 May 2005 - YouTube

I know, what does that have to do with Diana? Well while weve talked about George V & VI being true to their wives, but they seem to be the exception and not the rule. Georges father Edward the VII, had a wandering eye, George's brother Eddie, was a scandal waiting to happen, and seemed to have the good sense to die of the flu before doing something really infamous, sexually. George's son Edward the VIIIs story is well known, and now Charles. Also interesting how they try to marry off Eddy, and one wonders how close to Charles the situation was, also how George the V used PR in his coronation, seemed even the press mattered then :)

Of course who knows how far back it goes, im much more of a Diana fan than royal fan, so my royal history is much less extensive than my Diana history. But it seems that the there is a well known tradition of kings/heirs not behaving well in their marriages. While Diana mentioned she loved English history in school, I doubt the teachers probably taught that aspect of their history, but among the older members of her family & friends, im sure they were aware of it, and they do like to gossip, as most ppl do.

Again, please dont read into my thread that im condoning C&C's behavior, or faulting Diana some how, I just think that someone let this poor girl walk into a bear trap, that given her family background, should have been very easy to avoid, or at least, plan around before she even sat next to Charles on that haybale at the De Passes(sp)? BBQ.

Its an interesting documentary, at least, and given watching Downton Abbey, gives one a better picture for that era, and how it shaped future events.
"No other member of the Royal Family mattered that year, or I think for the next 17 years, it was just her." Arthur Edwards, The Sun Photographer, talking about Diana's impact.

Minerva

Bonjour @LouisFerdinand here's a link to a photograph of Diana reading Cartland novels:

Princess Diana and Barbara Cartland | Lisa's History Room

I also am inclined to believe that she would have read Mills & Boon for a giggle as were popular in the 80s, the infamous Jilly Cooper 'Riders' but also some more dextrous prose many years later on meeting Dr Khan. Most probably things like the BMJ.

IMO her tastes changed as her suitors changed although IMO her monthly subscription to Vogue didn't along with as was popular in the 90s self help manuals such as 'Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus' and 'Chicken Soup for the Soul'. All speculation on my part of course having no connection to Princess Diana and basically going by book trends throughout different time periods and the fact Diana is enamoured of fashion so most probably read the fashion bible of the 90s Vogue. Apologies for digressing off topic.

In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. -George Orwell

live your truth there is nothing to fear, you live your fear you fear life.

Death is not a sport, nor is hunting. ... Ahimsa

Duch_Luver_4ever

I had read (cant remember the book) also William and her had a bit of a disagreement when he saw her reading a Jackie Collins book, and she said something about his father filling his head with Shakespeare.
"No other member of the Royal Family mattered that year, or I think for the next 17 years, it was just her." Arthur Edwards, The Sun Photographer, talking about Diana's impact.

dianab

Quote from: sandy on June 04, 2016, 12:01:30 AM

If you look at the literature of Charles and DIana at the time (and also the early movies about their courtship), the story was told that Anna stormed out because CHarles spent more time with the QUeen Mother at the part than he did ANna. Anna was spun as a spoiled young woman who did not "appreciate" Charles attachment to his grandmother. But as it turned out later, it was discovered she was upset about Camilla. Actually, Camilla was still seen as the "safe" married friend who hosted (with her husband) CHarles and Diana and approved of Diana.

It shows me that Anna wasnt aware of Camilla as lover of Charles when he was courting her (Anna) but found out during this party what really was going on between them... I think the same situation happened with Diana (during their engagement)... she found out later the Camilla's role in life of Charles

Duch_Luver_4ever

Cant remember the book, one of these days I must start indexing what tidbits each book has, but it was his dancing and talking with Camilla all evening that led to Anna's comment and driving away. I havent read up enough on Anna to know exactly when she knew about Camilla, if that night was the first inkling, or the last straw to break the camels back.

But again, for me the curious question is not when did Diana find out, but why ppl in her world had her so ill prepared for the possibility of somebody, anybody to be in his life, as its in the custom for these types of marriages to have that type of arrangement.
"No other member of the Royal Family mattered that year, or I think for the next 17 years, it was just her." Arthur Edwards, The Sun Photographer, talking about Diana's impact.